Leopard Tortoises – Are they the Worst Pet Tortoise or Sensitive and Misunderstood?

Transcript

Leopard Tortoises Unpacked

intro:
[0:00] Are leopard tortoises one of the world’s worst pet tortoises? Today’s guest unlocks the mystery behind these notoriously sensitive, but ultimately rewarding animals.

Wendy:
[0:11] I’m Wendy Montroy, and this is Turtle Tea with TTPG. Today we’re talking to Cliff Graham-Lee about leopard tortoises, and help me out with the scientific name.

Cliff:
[0:21] It is Stigmochelys pardalis pardalis. That is the new name. However, previously, which i hope i don’t get um canceled for uh stigmatelli’s pardalis babcocki which we have largely abandoned and they are all Stigmochelys pardalis pardalis okay um however i you know i, I do differentiate between the two. They feel very different. I have both. I will refer to pardalis pardalis as the South African locality, and… That has its own nuances, and then I will also refer to the previous babcocki as the eastern. Basically, what we have now in the U.S. is really just like a mush. We don’t really have, you know, we don’t really, like, we say South African, right? But out of the original Pardalis Pardalis, if you will, there were just more clades of leopard tortoises, I believe, like maybe 11 different localities of leopard tortoises in South Africa. I believe it’s 11.

Cliff:
[1:48] And as they were coming, you know, there were just so many leopard tortoises were just being smuggled out by the droves. And so, you know, we kind of lost a lot of specific locality information. Then they were, you know, they were confiscated from smugglers. There was a group that was confiscated from smugglers. They ended up at the Pretoria Zoo. one person in the U.S., Randy Lindbergh, bought all of those smuggled tortoises from the Pretoria Zoo here to the U.S. And has never introduced another bloodline to them.

Wendy:
[2:29] Oh, wow.

Cliff:
[2:30] However… We don’t know the exact range of South Africa from where all these different smuggled leopard tortoises ended up from. So if you look at his line, some are darker, some are golden, you know, they have been mixed. So I say pardalis pardalis in general, right, as South African leopard tortoises, right? It’s not, you know, there unfortunately just isn’t locality-specific information. Um and then we all know that the old babcock eye is just a random mix of all of our east african leopard tortoises so yeah long-winded way of saying a long-winded way of saying that it’s all really a mush and i understand why they have scientifically said they are all one just like Stigmochelys pardalis. But they really do look and feel very different, where the South Africans are going through diapause, and I have babcocki or East African Leopard tortoises that are not going through diapause.

Wendy:
[3:46] Interesting.

Cliff:
[3:48] You know, and I’ve even read, too, that because we have such a mix here in the U.S. That we don’t, you know, oftentimes what we consider, you know, East African has been mixed with South African. And so I’ve also read that like some people are, you know, with mixed tortoises are diaposing their leopard tortoises because, yeah, so it’s just like, it’s It’s one big mush, but there are differences.

Why Leopard Tortoises?

Wendy:
[4:21] Okay. So I want to thank you for joining me today. And let’s start with why leopards? What drew you to them over other species?

Cliff:
[4:33] Well, you know, that is a question that I ask myself every day because leopard tortoises, I watched this video like years ago of Chris Leone talking about the five worst species of tortoises to get. And like leopard tortoises was like number one or two.

Wendy:
[4:57] Really?

Cliff:
[4:57] Like, yeah, they’re just like such an incredibly sensitive species, like everything’s them. You know you could like sneeze and a leopard tortoise will a leopard tortoise will like grow a pyramid right like it is like you see them all.

Wendy:
[5:13] The time with the giant yeah.

Cliff:
[5:15] With the more so than any other tortoise right absolutely and it is just like they there’s just something about them that is just so sensitive to everything it’s kind of like you know some people do really well with fiddle leaf plants like fiddle leaf trees. I am not that person, but I thought I can possibly do well with leopards. I love the fact that they, out of all of the tortoise species, to me the leopard tortoises physically look so distinct that no two are similar. I have um, Now, I have to think. I don’t know. I have maybe anywhere between 10 and 12. I have to actually count that number. Leopard, tortoises, and my South African group, all three look completely different, and two are from the Limburg line, right? And the Lindbergh line, one is a bit more golden, one has a lot more blacks and yellows in it, right? And then there’s another line from Andy Hedge, which was originally imported from Wanda Patterson from South Africa.

Cliff:
[6:42] And that just has like, it’s almost like you’re high white, but in reverse, like high black. If there’s like a high black leopard tortoise, like that’s what this one looks like. And so they’re just, inside one species, there is just so much variation that it feels like you just have like so many different types of tortoises. So it’s not.

Wendy:
[7:09] It’s not like if you get from a certain locality they’re all uniform they’re all going to be even even in the same clutch i’m assuming you’re going to have a great deal of variation.

Cliff:
[7:18] Uh yeah i would say this because the limberg line is uh you know they were all smuggled and then ended up in at the petoria zoo and then with randy limberg so they’re kind of all over south africa right with the andy hedge line you can look at it and know no because it’s like that reverse it’s like a high black leopard tortoise right and it’s got a very star pattern to it um there is a gentleman on youtube that i absolutely love his name is leo from our leopard tortoises, and he has he’s like producing, the Andy Hedge line like crazy and they just have a very unique specific look they’re massive like these adults grow and they’re just like 20 inches I have a 7 year old that is 16 inches, she has literally grown um.

Cliff:
[8:25] Four inches in a year like it’s it’s like phenomenal just like because i am very into tracking growth and you know sometimes like this girl will not eat and i’ll weigh her like a month later and i’m like how did you gain a full pound like how did you do this i didn’t even see you eat, um how much yeah so does that one weigh uh that one now i weighed yesterday is uh 21 and a half pounds wow yeah and she’s seven.

Wendy:
[8:59] Wow so she’s yeah still going.

Cliff:
[9:02] Yeah i got her two years ago at three pounds oh wow so more.

Wendy:
[9:08] Than double yeah.

Cliff:
[9:09] That’s crazy i got her at three pounds and two years ago in 2024 i got her in march 2024 and here we are 2026 may and she’s 22 pounds wow yeah that’s.

Wendy:
[9:24] That’s crazy that’s.

Cliff:
[9:26] Wild growth yeah so.

Wendy:
[9:28] You know she’s just going to be huge like she’s.

Cliff:
[9:30] Not anywhere.

Wendy:
[9:31] Close to done yeah.

Cliff:
[9:32] Yeah like and she’s like you know um uh now she’s getting a bit more active but like really like she just kind of I hardly see her moving I don’t even feed them every day and she just grows that’s crazy and the other two that are from the Lindbergh line will also probably be get that big maybe a little smaller, there’s a really good pair on Morph Market right now if anybody out there is interested from the Rodriguez’s who is doing a really good job with this line. But yeah, so my Limburg’s are 14 inches and maybe, 13 inches and 14 pounds.

Native Range and Climate

Wendy:
[10:30] Okay. So we already kind of talked about this a little bit, but let’s kind of get into their natural history. It’s important to understand that before you keep an animal in your home. So we touched on their range. It sounds like South Africa and East Africa. It’s a pretty large range, right? Yeah.

Cliff:
[10:53] Um, they, there are gigantic leper tortoises all the way up to, you know, um, Ethiopia, they come all the way down, Tanzania, um, you know, South Africa, Kenya, it’s like, just like this, the most massive range. Africa is probably the continent with the most varied climates in the world.

Wendy:
[11:25] Yeah, I was going to say, if the range is that large, what kind of climate variation do they have in their native range?

Cliff:
[11:33] They’re moving through it all. Okay. and you can see so in south africa which is amazing little funny story is my sister-in-law my husband’s from south africa so my sister-in-law um used to have like a leopard tortoise walked into her backyard one day and just like lived with her for years um and she had this leopard tortoise um and she said the and obviously you know at this point now they like fence it in And they’re like, we love this.

Cliff:
[12:05] And this was a, you know, South Africa and like the night late eighties, early nineties. And, um, She said that this tortoise was so big, like, her kids could, like, sit on it. Wow. To her, because South Africa does have a winter, very similar to Los Angeles in terms of, like, climate. But there is a winter, which is our summer. She said every year the tortoise would hibernate. And so I am arguing with my sister-in-law, who has had a natural, like, wild caught, like, backyard walked into, leper tortoise. And she says, Cliff, it’s a leper tortoise. She’s like, they hibernate. She’s like, you cannot tell me that they do not hibernate because I had them. And she’s like, my tortoise would disappear for months in the winter. And then all of a sudden when the sun came out, they would, you know, it would spring about. And I was like, oh, that is very interesting. It goes against everything that I’ve read. And she’s like, it’s the truth. And so my sister and even her kids, whenever they see them, they’re like, why is it not hibernating? And I’m like, they don’t hibernate.

Cliff:
[13:21] So that’s like, in South Africa, the weather drops significantly. Right? And we’re talking like they might have, you know, they might be weeks on end in like the 50s.

Cliff:
[13:38] You know, I don’t think it drops down to the 40s that low. But… You know, there is, like, a natural slowing down, and then you get to, like, parts of, like, Kenya that are, like, closer to the equator that just have, like, these really pristine climates all the time where it’s, like, you know, 75 degrees at night, you know, that’s where we have, like, this eastern leper tortoise, the east African leper tortoise that, you know, you really don’t want this tortoise to drop down anything below 60 degrees right because it’s just not something that’s intuitive to them um i have learned that uh you know humidity plays a massive factor and that’s something that you know i would say more so i think in the tortoise world we all like know about humidity already. But for leopard tortoises, it is this real delicate dance between, you know, humidity and understanding, like, the rainy seasons, right? Like, they don’t have cold rainy seasons, right? They have a warm rainy season. So they can do wet and warm without.

Cliff:
[15:02] You know, without if it’s, like, healthy, right? And obviously, like, if… You know, this is a wild factor, but if you’re like me coming from California, a very arid place to Atlanta, then they need time to like acclimatize. But, you know, it’s definitely something where, I’ve noticed you let them get too dry and it’s not it doesn’t like they just look like they are needing some water like you know their scales are desiccated and then if it’s like too wet even if it’s like too much precipitation, they just like they can’t get rid of all of that water you know like you really really need like the sun to come out and dry things out for them. And that’s what I’m talking about more like adults and like the babies naturally need, like they seek out the microclimates a lot more.

Cliff:
[16:09] But I have seen, you know, as I have seen the last, or I saw the last imported group of leopard tortoise into the u.s and they came in from tanzania all pyramided really all of them all wild caught and i asked the owner i said hey i was like they come in like this like they’re they you know they look like all like worse than like captive bread right right thousand and she said every single one she’s like she got them in the 90s and, was it the 90s I think it was like the early 90s she got them and she’s like every single one, came in just like this she’s like they were adults when she got them so you know we do know that, They are found in the arid areas in Africa as well. We all know that the more humidity they’re raised with, the less of a chance pyramiding is going to happen. So natural stress is also there for them.

Wendy:
[17:30] It’s not just being in human care that causes that.

Cliff:
[17:34] Correct. Yep.

Wild Populations and Imports

Wendy:
[17:35] So I know IUCN assessed them last in 2014, which with tortoises, you know, that much time, a lot can change, but they were least concerned. Do we know how they’re doing in the wild at this point, do you think?

Cliff:
[17:52] I honestly, I’m not sure. That’s a good question for Dirk, who is like the king of everything. Dirk, I really enjoy talking to Dirk. Huge shout out to him because I’ll call Dirk for, you know, for very random things. And we end up talking about life and he’s just like an awesome human being. And I have a lot of respect for that guy. Um but i don’t know how they’re doing in the wild my sister-in-law is you know she she lives near the kruger park um and she will randomly send me a video of a wild leper leper tortoise in the wild that’s so cool i’ll send it over to you she says okay here is your wild leper tortoise, and then and then you know you look at this wild leper tortoise in the wild in south africa and everything that like we have built in our heads around what a south african leper tortoise looks like is completely dismantled because it looks like an east african babcock eye right yeah and No, I completely understand why they made it all into one species and there is no subspecies, but, you know, it’s just unfortunate that we…

Cliff:
[19:20] You know, as humanity moved so fast without data, without data tracking, you know? So, but it is cool. If you can find yourself like a good F1, you know, from someone who has the originals, then that’s like, I think the way to go.

Wendy:
[19:40] They stopped importing them in 2000 along with Sulcata and Bell’s Hingebacks. Is that right? So the, everything that’s here came in before 2000.

Cliff:
[19:49] Yeah, exactly. okay yeah some i don’t i it’s 2000 i thought it was the late 90s but somewhere somewhere around there okay yeah um must have been imported in 2000 okay as the owner said who’s also in ttpg i mean i don’t know if i should just like throw her name out there or not but um but you know her i We all know her. But anyway, she said that these leper tortoises were literally on flight coming to the U.S. as the law went into it.

Wendy:
[20:29] As it dropped? Wow. That’s crazy.

Cliff:
[20:31] And so she was like, that’s how she knows that she has, like, the absolute last pair ever imported, group ever imported.

Wendy:
[20:38] Yeah.

Cliff:
[20:39] Because she said, like, they were in the air, and she’s like, well, it’s in effect, but they’re here now.

Wendy:
[20:44] Yeah. They’re not going back.

Cliff:
[20:46] Yeah. So. But yeah, I think that, you know, there’s. There’s kind of like a lot of history with leopard tortoises that, you know, kind of goes, kind of goes like unknown. I think that now like people, you know, sulcatas were a really big thing, right? It’s like, you know, you kind of had like wood turtles that were a big thing, right? And like the wood turtle had its like day and age, right? And the eastern box turtle had its day and age. And then uh the russian had its time then we like sulcata is is always going to be forever, um and then kind of like neck and neck you had like the redfoot cherry head explosion and the leopards right and so like they’re kind of like dying down a little bit and people have been like right now honestly like because i’m just always like what are people talking about i really think that like now is the time of mountain tortoises yep.

Wendy:
[21:54] Yeah i agree it’s.

Cliff:
[21:56] I think that this is on the upswing yeah yeah i think that on it like i think that phayrei are going to one day be really expensive um we’ll see how they’re doing um and i think that you know vic morgan definitely has like a really good represented population um a phayrei in the u.s but i think that you know we are really going to be fighting over his line in the future i mean i feel like you know we do have like you know honolulu and you know john bailey is doing amazing things with tortoise.com, but I you know I really there’s just like a lot of great things happening for phayrei right now and I would say the same for Emys Emys but, People really like, you know, and Vic absolutely hates this term, cold tolerant, but people really like the fact that, you know, you can keep them down low in the 50s, which is, you know, it’s not in the 30s. And Vic is like very super clear about that, not being in the 30s. But, you know, 50s for a reptile is pretty low.

Wendy:
[23:26] Yeah.

Cliff:
[23:27] You know, and so I think it’s.

Wendy:
[23:29] I actually looked into Phayrei for a while because I live about an hour from Vic, like same climate. And, you know, was looking hard into them. And then I met an adult female at Tom and Cara’s and saw how big she was. And I was like, nope.

Cliff:
[23:50] Well, then just do the browns.

Wendy:
[23:52] I want something that I can move on my own if I need to. And these are definitely not that. And also, if we have to evacuate for a hurricane, I don’t want to have to rent a box truck.

Cliff:
[24:06] Yeah. I like you say that. I’m like, yeah, I’m going to have to do that. You know, but, you know, on the other side, coming from right before, you know, I hopped on here, like, it’s raining out here in Atlanta, and I’ve just told you about, like, precipitation of it all and leopard tortoises. So, you know, I locked the South Africans away who could probably deal with like they were here last year. So there was definitely like an acclimatization process, right, to us moving into a very humid, wet environment from Los Angeles. Lost a lot, learned even more. And… And it’s funny because the leopards that were here last year, all the leopards that survived the incredibly wet year we had last year and my complete ignorance to Atlanta, they know. They’re so in tune now. The second it even looks like they can smell it, they disappear. I can’t find it.

Wendy:
[25:15] So they put themselves away, yeah.

Cliff:
[25:17] I can tell it’s going to rain just by them, like, disappearing. And I look at the sky, I’m like, oh, it’s getting dark. And, like, they’re out. And then the second, and, you know, we have, like, it’s like Florida, right? We have, like, these, like, 20 wild minutes of rain.

Wendy:
[25:34] Yep.

Cliff:
[25:35] And then the second that it’s done, you’ll see them, like, all peeking out of the house and, like, eating the wet grass. And like on the complete opposite end you have fari that you know it’s not raining and they’re like hidden and all of a sudden it rains and they’re like ooh let me come outside today so.

Wendy:
[25:55] Yeah yellowfoots do the same thing if.

Cliff:
[25:57] It rains.

Wendy:
[25:58] They are running around they’re thrilled they think it’s great.

Cliff:
[26:02] They get so stimulated and so it’s you know actually it’s really cool as a keeper to, have both extremes right it’s no like i you know like yesterday i just like sat there in the rain with my raincoat staring at the phayrei because they were having like the time of their lives um and then this year’s babcockis that i babcock um eastern leopard tortoises that i have uh i am moving them inside like the second it starts raining i’m just like you guys are from california you and i just got them recently um they have not produced or anything yet but it’s been like you know i have been i i knew that if i was bringing something over here from california i had to do it in january because they had to like ease into the hot.

Wendy:
[26:59] The wet yeah.

Cliff:
[27:00] Yeah they had to ease into it right they started out for you know three months in the basement and then um the last month i left like the basement door open so they could experience like you know the humidity coming in um then move them outside into like a very very small pen, super close to food just so that like, you know, I just all, you know, they are so sensitive, they can just stop eating so quickly that I just want them to always run into food, right? Because they’re, I had just got them. And then now, their pen is a lot bigger, they’re doing very well and we’re kind of like experimenting. I’m like, alright, like, you guys will experience the rain today. And then, you know, I’ll see how that goes for the next couple of days. Like when it had first started, like they would, you know, it would be…

Cliff:
[28:04] Um it would rain i would like let them experience the rain for like maybe 15 or 20 minutes and i would grab them and bring them back into the basement and so it was like a very slow and it is a very slow acclimatization and today is the first day or last night and today are the first day where it’s like raining and i’m letting them kind of do their thing so far there’s we’ve had no issues with them.

Cliff:
[28:33] But it’s something that I take very seriously because knocking out a respiratory infection is just so stubborn. And other species, I feel like every other species in the world does better with a respiratory infection than the leopard tortoise.

Not for Beginners

Wendy:
[28:51] So would you say as far as, you know, human care goes, they’re not a beginner species at all?

Cliff:
[28:59] 110 percent like Chris Leone was 110 accurate leopards they’re not a beginners species they’re not a super active species like they’re like very pretty slow moving rocks um they, really do not care about you uh if anything like they’re very skittish around you around people um like they’ll they’ll kind of like you walk over they kind of just like tuck in and i’ve had these guys for years right yeah they’ll still like tuck in um really love the leopard males and you know i think honestly it should be the other way around the leopard males should be more expensive because the females are just boring right and it’s not even guaranteed that, that they’re going to drop a clutch for you, right? They can be producing in someone else’s care, and then you can get them, and they can just completely stop. I know amazing breeders that have just like, they’re like, yeah, this girl has bred for me for the past 10 years and just randomly stopped. Nothing has changed.

Wendy:
[30:07] So they’re just difficult in general.

Cliff:
[30:10] Yes. But once they are stable, like once they are really stable, um they’re good okay but it’s like you know let’s this winter my first winter in atlanta um it was a very mild winter but definitely too cold for too cold to keep the tortoises outdoors even in the bungalows um you know had an indoor pen in the basement for them temperatures were like bumped up like it was like 85 plus in my basement it was like roasting um not a cool spot move them and it obviously it’s dry like no rain whatsoever just move them inside and two had like a runny nose just from the stress of not being in their pen alone and going into a new pen that stressed them out so much that like you know like I had I literally took two of them to the vet and I was like I don’t know what’s going like out of nowhere she just and it’s just because she literally like all she wanted to do was be in her safe spot you know so they’re.

Wendy:
[31:26] Being as big as they are how do you set them up when you need to bring them inside?

Cliff:
[31:34] It’s not graceful. I’ll tell you that. So what I did was I boxed off, had a really good size room, like, you know, maybe like 12 by 14 feet in my basement. And I, you know, grabbed like one by, two by 12 and made a perimeter, split that in half. And I did three South Africans on one side and two of the Easterns on the other side. Then I had, like, my entire basement was just, like, filled with tortoises, like, cypress mulch everywhere. Like, a full cypress mulch that I’m still shoveling out.

Wendy:
[32:17] Did you put tarps down or anything? Okay.

Cliff:
[32:20] Definitely put tarps down. And, you know, I have one more tarp that I need to drag out. Luckily enough, I’m on a little over an acre, and I have like a tortoise mulch wasteland dedicated. I just like chuck all of the cypress mulch and never have to look back at it. So, but yeah, there is, I set them up. They all had in one corner a radiant heat panel that also acted as a hide. Okay. And so, and it was just, like, floating above them, but it was enough that, like, if they went under the radiant heat.

Wendy:
[33:06] They had cover, yeah.

Cliff:
[33:08] They had, like, a cover, um, I set it so that right above their shell was hitting the 85-degree mark, a heat panel along the wall, so that if they’re pressing their nose up to the wall, there’s just some warmth there. Like I just was very cautious about like where a potential cold draft could come in from. And so, you know, I just put it there. I don’t think I needed it. I think I definitely like, you know, overdid it. But I was just like, I’m not losing another tortoise out here due to weather. Um and so and then i had spotlights of um uh uvb uvb spot bulbs okay like did you use heat.

Wendy:
[34:10] Lamps at all or just the radiant panels.

Cliff:
[34:12] Just i the radiant panel and then i had basking like power sun bulbs okay okay yeah so they they had they all had a power sun and i you know i have a light meter, I was measuring everything, trying to be super cautious of like, you know, I just wanted them all to make it through. To me, it was a very successful winter when I came out of winter with all of my tortoises.

Wendy:
[34:43] Yeah.

Cliff:
[34:44] Right?

Wendy:
[34:46] Did you lose some during the move?

Cliff:
[34:49] I definitely did.

Wendy:
[34:50] I’m so sorry.

Cliff:
[34:52] Yeah, it was really hard. I had a lot of amazing people that I would just like to call out again. Like William Espenshade who is like just a wealth of knowledge right yeah he’s the best I make it a goal to call him just like once a month and just talk sometimes I have nothing to talk about hey what’s up bro um uh Danielle Summers um from TTPG like awesome last year when I was going through it, she was just giving me articles, you know, that I could read and just super helpful.

Wendy:
[35:34] So you basically had a crew supporting you through…

Cliff:
[35:40] Yeah, Danielle.

Wendy:
[35:41] Okay.

Cliff:
[35:42] Sorry, Danielle from Carapace Critters. Another amazing person. Like, I literally, and I, you know, there’s one thing that we don’t do. We don’t talk about, like, the infectious diseases that, like, tortoises, you know, get. Some pathogens are completely fine for one species. And then, like, you know, another species, it can just.

Wendy:
[36:07] Like, completely— It can wipe them out. Yeah.

Cliff:
[36:10] And so, and, and my species have never met. Right. And so I moved out here, um, with, you know, the various groups of leopard tortoises and, um, I had some Redfoots and Russians. Redfoots and russians were just like so hardy it was like nothing fazed them whatsoever, humidity didn’t bother them if anything the redfoots got even bigger like they were just probably well they were like in the four to five inch range but like they were just like oh this is awesome um uh russians were just like very you know russian not person russian they’re so tough yeah yeah they were just like doing their dirt frisbee thing and you know digging into the ground um and then the leopards were i like i swear they just kind of froze they were like what is this And I lived in a heavily HOA-ed community. I had artificial grass before, and… Like, the tortoises were literally like, what is this? Is this grass? Is this real grass? Like, you know, just everything was just so far into them.

Cliff:
[37:37] I lived in Santa Clarita. It had not rained in Santa Clarita in nearly 18 months by the time I had lived.

Wendy:
[37:46] Wow.

Cliff:
[37:47] I had not noticed.

Wendy:
[37:49] That’s how rare that was for them. And then they come to Atlanta. Yeah.

Cliff:
[37:53] And it’s just raining. Like we moved here and it was right. Like I’m literally like my husband drove across country for me with 16 tortoises. Cause I.

Wendy:
[38:03] That’s a keeper.

Cliff:
[38:06] I mean, him and my son drove only because I refused to ship them. And in hindsight, I should have shipped them. I just like.

Wendy:
[38:17] No, I get the worrying about them though. Like animals that big going through. Yeah.

Cliff:
[38:24] Yeah. I was just, I was too nervous that I was going to lose some and that like, how, like the timing of it all. We didn’t know anybody in Atlanta.

Wendy:
[38:34] And especially with you saying that they’re that sensitive. Correct. You don’t want to kick off disease or, yeah.

Cliff:
[38:42] At this time in California, I had not had one issue.

Wendy:
[38:47] Okay.

Cliff:
[38:49] Like they were great in California. And I moved out here and, um, and I had bought one other leopard tortoise, um, but from the same person. So like, basically a majority of my tortoises were from this one person. Um, and so I’m just like, you know, uh, we’re moving. They were all together within the past year. so I was not very strict with quarantining because I was like, It’s only been a few months, literally, that these tortoises, like, were separated from each other. Right. Long story short, and I had other tortoises as well that I had had from, you know, seeing something on Craigslist or whatever. And I was just like, oh, okay, this is cheap. I’ll, like, grab this one, too. And so somewhere within the leper tortoises, one of them, and I don’t know which one, ended up with mycoplasma or I purchased mycoplasmosis, right? And when we were moving, it was very difficult. I moved into a temporary, like we moved into an Airbnb first. I have four kids. I was the only person working. and.

Cliff:
[40:12] You know I had these temp pens at our Airbnb, and then the males would start fighting and I would take a male out in California never had an issue I would take a male out and I would say okay I gotta move you over here and so I spent like four weeks trying to keep harmony in the leopard pens and I really think that just doing that just kind of spread whatever it was around, right? And so, like, not all of my leper tortoises have tested positive for mycoplasma, but I really believe that, At least with the South Africans, I’m 110% like they have it.

Biosecurity and Mycoplasma

Wendy:
[40:58] I was going to ask you that. Is that something that they can kind of silently carry until their system gets stressed and then they break with symptoms?

Cliff:
[41:06] Absolutely.

Wendy:
[41:07] Okay.

Cliff:
[41:08] Absolutely. And so that is like one of the biggest reasons that I am super cautious. And then I’ll talk to you. I can’t tell you how many people from TTPG have reached out and said super supportive things like, you’re not alone. I’ve been through this. So many people are sharing their war stories with me.

Cliff:
[41:34] I’m talking to friends and they’re like, well, you’re not the first person to lose a $2,000 tortoise. But, you know, like, it is definitely out there. But now, like, I am very, like, I do… The absolute max that I can do in terms of like biosecurity, right? Like there is a way that I move in the pens. My kids understand what they can and cannot do. Um, and you know, there’s like a hierarchy from like, there’s a hierarchy of like, you know, if I’m in a rush and I’m going of grabbed uh tortoises i can only move in one direction right like i like okay i can do the i will start out with like the phayrei and then i’ll move to like the platinota and then i’ll move to um one group of leopards then another and work my way down the chain um and i’m walking with sanitizer as well, you know, and I’m just like, you know, trying my absolute best. I have everything set up so that I do not need to walk in the pen.

Cliff:
[42:52] Walking into a wet pen to me is like the most wildly absurd thing that I think any of us can do because that is just like, you know, it is just a wet pen is just really. A way that different types of bacteria can stick to your shoes and you can parasites and right and so i kind of i set things up so that i don’t need to like like the bungalows or their heated houses are on the border and so you can just reach over and i can i don’t need to go in i only walk into a pen unless i absolutely have to um and for me at least that has really helped um i have gates around certain pens so that nothing even squirrels i am thinking okay like is there a possibility that a squirrel could be hopping from one water source to the next and so ultimately this is this is what I think. I think that, you know, if I were a person that.

Cliff:
[44:04] You know was keeping one or two tortoises right it would be different but i’m trying to i’m going after like groups and i’m trying to like really manufacture and curate something very different and specific i know that i will have casualties and i know that at some point what until i am locked and not accepting and not bringing any more animals in i know that like it is a very risky game of like you know when.

Wendy:
[44:37] You have multiple species from all over the world i mean i have the same thing i have redfoots yellowfoots greeks and there’s only so much you can do with one piece of property but i even do the same thing where i’ve got the back is south america.

Wendy:
[44:53] The front. Is europe because like.

Cliff:
[44:55] You just want the best you can yeah.

Wendy:
[44:58] And if rain washes through a pen that’s next to a pen and ticks fecal matter with it you never know what you’re spreading so yeah and.

Cliff:
[45:07] I think everyone’s.

Wendy:
[45:09] Kind of relaxed until you lose someone from a disease and then suddenly it becomes important.

Cliff:
[45:14] Yeah exactly and so i and i think that we as keepers need to be, a little bit more forthcoming because it does see it it feels like oh like your tortoises have mycoplasma oh never never and it’s like no bro like it’s not never like it’s yeah unless.

Wendy:
[45:37] You’ve tested you have no idea.

Cliff:
[45:39] What they’re carrying accurate right like i’m sure i can test all of my south africans now they’re not visibly shedding so there is nothing but they could.

Wendy:
[45:50] Still be carrying it like.

Cliff:
[45:51] They still be carrying it um and that is what I am looking for most of all is just quickly taking action if a tortoise is shedding right um there is an amazing facility um RAL research um.

Wendy:
[46:20] I think they were at Daytona last year.

Cliff:
[46:22] Yeah, they were.

Wendy:
[46:23] Yeah, I was super excited and grabbed all their flyers, got magnets on the fridge.

Cliff:
[46:29] Yeah, they are amazing. I’ve been using, I’ve been, you know, you buy the testing swabs, which not to be a complete nerd, but I’ve got like all these little testing swabs on my desk.

Wendy:
[46:43] Okay.

Cliff:
[46:45] And you can test your tortoises.

Wendy:
[46:48] So it’s not something you need to take them to a vet to get a sample. You can do it on your own.

Cliff:
[46:52] It is not. You can, you know, you’ve got to work with your tortoise a bit like you got to.

Wendy:
[47:01] It’s not easy. Yeah.

Cliff:
[47:03] Yeah. It needs to. I wouldn’t recommend like, you know, somebody at a reptile show grabbing a tortoise and then grabbing a testing swab. Right like i would say that like you know it takes like a bit of coaxing you really want to get uh like it’s in the mucus so you need to get like the mucus membrane on the swab and if you need to be like.

Wendy:
[47:29] Holding the banana or whatever they eat and then.

Cliff:
[47:32] Exactly and then you get it right in there And then, yeah, I tested one and it just like little Emmys, Emmys was just like angry. It just bit the swab. And I was like.

Wendy:
[47:47] Like, perfect.

Cliff:
[47:48] Yeah. And so it’s a great way to know because I don’t think that it is not a death sentence. Right.

Wendy:
[47:58] But you need to know for bringing in other animals so you can watch for signs and jump on it immediately.

Cliff:
[48:05] Yeah, and then also, like, you know, keep it alone.

Wendy:
[48:09] Yeah.

Cliff:
[48:10] You know? Like, it’s okay to have a pet.

Wendy:
[48:14] Totally.

Cliff:
[48:15] You know, it’s okay. I know that like a lot of us do not look at tortoises like pets, right? But it’s okay to have a pet tortoise that is not going to be a part of like some great elaborate plan that we have all mapped out.

Wendy:
[48:33] Yeah. So I still do very much so. I have single animals that aren’t in groups that don’t have plans to breed. And everyone has a name because I feel like that, you know, personalizes them and takes them from being livestock to being pets.

Cliff:
[48:50] Yeah. And that is, um, you know, and that, that’s okay. There’s, um, um, I love all of my tortoises. I think they all have, I’m sure you like, you know, they have very different personalities.

Wendy:
[49:04] Very much so. Yeah.

Cliff:
[49:05] Um, and I love getting to know them and, you know, will S, Upenshade says all the time. He says, well, he’s like, I kind of like to date a tortoise, and I keep it by itself when I first get it, and I get to know it. And I think that that’s a really cool philosophy, is really taking time to getting to know a tortoise, like keeping it quarantining or keeping a single tortoise in a pen is a great way to… Slow down to their pace.

Wendy:
[49:44] Yeah and then you learn their nuances their behavior and if something does go wrong you’ll know like that instead of being like well i don’t know you know they’re in a group so i see them as a group and yeah exactly.

Cliff:
[49:59] Yeah like i have this little tiny emmys emmys that I got from Tom and Kara. And, it is, this is the one that bit the swab. It is just so feisty. And I have, excuse me, I have it in like a husky container. And, you know, I have like the lid kind of cracked a little bit and I can peek in and I can see it. And I swear, this little thing knows that I’m poking my eye through before I even, you know, get to the little people and it is just there like open this lid i dare you, like it’s just so feisty i love this little emmy’s emmy’s so i don’t have a name for it but i just call it the feisty one um and it’s just like you know i’m very you know very, happy that like i i did have it with um uh another emmys but i moved one emmys out and i would really like to see like what is how do they do if one is like outdoors versus one being indoors and you know do they.

Wendy:
[51:13] Grow at the same rates to.

Cliff:
[51:14] You know what does the shell look like.

Wendy:
[51:16] Yeah.

Cliff:
[51:17] Yeah. The one indoors is moving, is growing faster.

Wendy:
[51:20] Yeah.

Cliff:
[51:21] It’s eating more.

Wendy:
[51:22] Because it’s consistent heat, light food. Yeah.

Cliff:
[51:27] And the one outdoors is, How would I put it? And just enjoying living a bit more naturally.

Wendy:
[51:39] Yeah.

Cliff:
[51:40] You know?

Wendy:
[51:41] Yeah, there’s definitely pros and cons to both, for sure.

Cliff:
[51:46] But I mean, ideally, I would like the smaller one to catch up to the size of the bigger one. Because initially, I did notice some bullying, which is why I separated them.

Wendy:
[51:58] Yeah. And if you don’t, the small one will stay small, and the big one will just get bigger and bigger. and then you’ll have a huge size difference.

Cliff:
[52:05] Yeah exactly and so i needed this like smaller one till i what happened is that they were like 100 and 100 grams away from each other when i first got them in daytona last year and then the bigger one just like doubled in size and the smaller one didn’t so i’m like let’s just back it down a notch,

Feeding the Grazers

Cliff:
[52:28] um let’s.

Wendy:
[52:29] Let’s get into feeding a little bit what are you feeding these guys i know they’re not really fruit eaters right they’re grasses broadleaf weeds that type of thing.

Cliff:
[52:40] Yeah lots um so i’ll do in two stages the winter and you know spring summer okay spring summer fall um really spring summer fall try my absolute hardest to like not overdo the feeding and really try to like force them to eat the grass um i throw a lot of like grass seeds out um you know february um each year now um uh when i moved into this house i probably threw like an acres worth of clover into my backyard and i was like i never want to buy food again.

Cliff:
[53:23] That is literally what happens even like you know the guy will come and cut the grass i’ll go out and break and i’ll throw that in there as well and they’ll know like, eat it quickly. And sometimes I just like pull a tortoise out and I’ll just like, I kind of have like spots for all the tortoises. I’m like, okay, if this tortoise is out, this is kind of like the area that I’ll allow it to eat in. Um, and so I’ll just like take a tortoise out for like 15 or 20 minutes and just let it eat as much grass as it can. Um, but yeah, I try to do like, um, tractor Petra Supply has really good foraging seeds. And so do the foraging seeds. I really try to mix the seeds up. There’s a lot of clover out there. We have plantain. I’m lucky the person that lived in my house before me was really into chickens and so planted a ton of plantain.

Wendy:
[54:25] And didn’t probably use herbicides or, yeah.

Cliff:
[54:29] Yep. And so I’m like super lucky. And my neighbor who lives like right back here, it’s like two acres of, of really just like weeds. And she lets me go back there. And she’s like, yeah, take as much as you want. Oh, nice.

Wendy:
[54:48] That’s perfect.

Cliff:
[54:48] Grab a ton of weeds and I’ll just throw them into the pen.

Wendy:
[54:52] Do they, do they eat hay at all or not really?

Cliff:
[54:56] Mine will eat my guys will eat the um uh, timothy hay okay pellets uh not not pellets but what like the the cubes for horses that yeah like the compressed cubes yeah and then i’ll soak those um so that that’s like more winter where okay where i do that um i will throw that out now like yesterday i went around and i threw a lot of like the timothy hay out um definitely not their favorite um they they just prefer grass like growing grass there’s something about it they can smell where they prefer it um so i try to like mix missouri into it they pick the missouri out of it um you know it it it’s not as huge of a hit but if i were to just leave them with it they will they’ll just let only eat it um do you do any supplements.

Wendy:
[55:57] Calcium cuddle bone that type of thing.

Cliff:
[56:00] Yeah well i just going back to that i try to look for like i look at their poop all the time and i’m just always after like the grassiest poops okay not like the big wet yeah yeah when i see that and i see like the big wet or if i see that like i’m like all right well i need to like cut back here in this direction they need they really just need those grasses to like push everything out of their system um so that’s what like that.

Wendy:
[56:29] That high fiber content, yeah.

Cliff:
[56:31] Yeah, exactly. I will, I’ll do calcium pits for them. So I’ll just like take a few scoops of calcium. I’ll put it into wherever I see the most amount of grass, like throw some calcium there and, they will like a moth till flame like.

Wendy:
[56:55] They really so they’re seeking it i’ve yeah seen that with cuttle bone too where sometimes they won’t touch it for six months and then they’ll eat like two of them it is females i’ve noticed definitely um.

Cliff:
[57:09] And my south african females are not laying or near-laying age yet. So, um, yeah, definitely. And then, uh, That is pretty much a collards or a staple. And I’m lucky out here in Georgia where I can go to Kroger and get a massive, you know, I can feed like four of the leopards for like $3, right? And I don’t overdo it. Like there’s still grass and clover out there for them to eat. But I’ll just throw it in and they’ll work on it throughout like the next two days.

Wendy:
[57:53] I lean on collards a lot, too. I just found that, you know, my local grocery store doesn’t carry mustard and turnip greens, but Walmart Grocery does. So, like, yes, doing collards, mustard greens, turnip greens, because the spring mix is, it’s like high test for something that’s a grass eater, for sure.

Cliff:
[58:16] Yeah so i got really lucky once again like you know just like a tortoise keeper like i got really lucky with the people that had lived in this with the two families that have lived in this house before us um first family like planting a ton of plantain in the backyard like my backyard is clover and plantain like what more could i ask for oh that’s perfect yeah and then the second, owner had like a little, because there are a ton of deer had like penned off this area, for her garden and I just removed the pen and put like you know border in there that’s where the Russians are like just constant weeds vegetables like grape leaves growing and the Russians are always eating and I feel like I give them the least amount of food.

Wendy:
[59:11] Yeah, I kind of wonder if they’re not like Greek tortoises where they will just eat until, like, you know, anything that I plant in there, they will literally climb hibiscus bushes to eat every single leaf off. They just never stop eating.

Cliff:
[59:25] Yeah, yeah. It’s just like, you know, they’re going to, like, the Russians are having a resurgence right now, obviously, because importation has now stopped.

Wendy:
[59:36] Stopped, yeah.

Cliff:
[59:36] You know, and I think that, like, people are now, like, I saw a Russian female go on sale for, like, $600 or more for it.

Wendy:
[59:46] Yeah.

Cliff:
[59:46] That is crazy.

Wendy:
[59:48] It is crazy.

Cliff:
[59:49] Like, I remember, like, not even that long ago, I feel like I was in California last year, so I swear I was on Craigslist and it was, like, female Russian tourists, $130.

Wendy:
[1:00:03] Yeah.

Cliff:
[1:00:04] You know?

Wendy:
[1:00:04] Yeah.

Cliff:
[1:00:05] With setup. like.

Pricing and Buying Advice

Wendy:
[1:00:11] So if someone wants to get into leopard tortoises, would you consider them kind of hard to find? Are they readily available? Are they on the expensive side? Where do they sit?

Cliff:
[1:00:24] Leopard tortoises right now I think are actually declining in price I think that we have a lot of people, I will never say that they’re going to be $60 like a sulcata they’re still going to, stay a little bit higher but I think for a new for a hatchling you’re looking in the, $150 to $185 range for the eastern and then $300 for anything Limburg-related, $300. And I really hope that that price does not drop. It should not drop. It should stay no less.

Wendy:
[1:01:09] Fairly stable, yeah.

Cliff:
[1:01:11] Yeah. And I only say that because we have to give some respect to the species, right, to the lineage.

Wendy:
[1:01:20] You don’t ever want it to be a $40 throwaway, especially with their sensitive needs.

Cliff:
[1:01:28] I mean, even like the standard East Africans as well. But, you know, when we get to the South African line, I personally think that we should not even be selling leopard tortoises. Under 200 grams i think that um i have learned just from like but like when i was doing the bungalows i would like you know buy leopard tortoise from this person i would just like buy tortoises and create like relationships with people and um and that’s how i like met a lot of people so i ended up with like a lot of like you know hatchlings and i was developing a humid chamber at the time. So I had all of these guys living in my human chamber, and one by one, I noticed that.

Cliff:
[1:02:21] Um, it was really around the 200 gram mark. Like once they reach 200 grams, like almost like the shell is kind of like set and you don’t, you don’t like, I, you know, encourage people to go past 200 grams and like really keep up with like the soaking. But after, you know, after 200 grams like um i did not i was not doing daily soaks and these tortoises were growing um very smooth as smooth as a leopard is going to grow right like i did have some like little golf balls um and so uh i think that like what if when i’m producing i have some eggs incubating now 200 grams is kind of like my goal and at 200 grams for an eastern i would say anywhere between 250 300 would be a great price because you’re getting them out of that like very fragile state right.

Wendy:
[1:03:27] Where you could lose them yeah.

Cliff:
[1:03:28] Yeah or or where just so much can go wrong yeah i went on uh because I was like developing products for tortoises and I needed tortoises. So I was like, you know, I need to see what pyramiding does. And so like I had tortoises that, you know, had a good amount of, I would actively buy them. And just trying to like study it and get them into like a humid space. And what I realized is that, you know, Some of them were at the 165-gram mark, 200-gram mark. The damage had been done.

Wendy:
[1:04:12] Yeah, you couldn’t fix it at that point.

Cliff:
[1:04:15] Yeah, and that’s small, right?

Wendy:
[1:04:17] It is, yeah.

Cliff:
[1:04:18] 200 grams is really small. But once it sets in at that point, You’re, you know, it’s still going to go.

Wendy:
[1:04:28] You’re fighting against it for the rest of their life, basically. Yeah.

Cliff:
[1:04:30] Yeah, exactly. And so I think that as, like, breeders, like, 200 grams is, like, should really be the mark for us.

Wendy:
[1:04:38] Okay. Yeah, one thing that’s kind of interesting, I reached out to Cameron just to check to see if they had ever been offered via the CPP, which is the Colonial Propagation Program where members can donate animals to other members. And leopard tortoises have never been offered, which both of us were really surprised by.

Cliff:
[1:05:01] Oh, really?

Wendy:
[1:05:02] Yeah. Yeah. They have never. We’ve had so many, like tons of species. I think everything else that I asked him, Greeks, Hermans, snake necks, like everything that’s coming up has been offered, but never leopard tortoises.

Cliff:
[1:05:16] Oh wow you know i also do think that people a lot of people don’t, value leopard tortoises as much in the community i think that you know leopard tortoises um because they have the personality of like a slug, like a lot of people don’t um you know don’t really get into them i really enjoy them because they just look so so different yeah um and you know and and i know that people are like oh leopards oh okay you know yeah so they’ve.

Wendy:
[1:05:57] Got that reputation of just being a boring yeah.

Cliff:
[1:06:00] Yeah Yeah, and it’s like, you know, we had this, like, rise of, like, Leopard and Redfoots together, but, like, Redfoots just have this personality.

Wendy:
[1:06:08] Oh, yeah.

Cliff:
[1:06:10] That you just can’t trump, right?

Wendy:
[1:06:13] Yeah.

Cliff:
[1:06:13] Like, Redfoots are just, like, awesome. Um, so, but yeah, I, uh, well, thanks for letting me know when I have some,

Setup Costs and Research

Cliff:
[1:06:24] I will definitely donate.

Wendy:
[1:06:26] Awesome. Be the first one. Is there, uh, anything that we missed on human care that you think is important for people to know?

Cliff:
[1:06:38] Um, yes, actually. The biggest thing is that, like, you know, you go out and you spend, let’s just say I spent $150 on the tortoise, right? Like, I need to be spending $400 on, like, the setup of everything. Maybe even more, right? Yeah.

Wendy:
[1:06:59] Yeah.

Cliff:
[1:07:00] Like, you know, you like the animal is literally the cheapest part of keeping it. And, you know, I think that you need a UVB light, right? Well, how do you know what UVB light is accurate? You need a light meter, right? And the light meter is like 300 alone. And so, you know, these are not, like, just animals.

Wendy:
[1:07:30] It’s not the cost of the animal, for sure. I mean, it’s the same thing with you get a dog and a cat. Right, exactly. It’s never the cost of the animal. That is the cheapest part.

Cliff:
[1:07:40] But on the other side, like a dog and a cat, like, you know, you can see when something is wrong so much better.

Wendy:
[1:07:51] Yes.

Cliff:
[1:07:52] Than you can with a tortoise who’s not getting the proper UVB. And then you just don’t realize it for such a long period of time.

Wendy:
[1:08:03] And by the time you realize it, it could be too late.

Cliff:
[1:08:05] Yes, exactly. And so just reading, actually buying books, right? Going to Amazon and buying the Fife Brothers book. I think it’s Jerry Fife. Richard Fife. One of the Fife Brothers, I can’t remember. I have the book. But, you know, just buying a book on leper tortoises and… Researching, really like just spending your time researching. Like I would go through and I still do it. I still like, as I’m trying to like find more information, I’ll grab a name that I hear, right? And, you know, somebody, somebody says the name like Wanda Patterson. I take that name, I go into Fauna Classifieds, I type in Wanda Patterson, I read every single message that her, every bulletin that ever had this person’s name brought up, because I just want to know, I just want to know, right? And so I think that, like, if you are getting into tortoises, like, if you’re not curious, then it’s just, or any, you know, reptile in general.

Wendy:
[1:09:23] I would say, too, if you’ve had tortoises for years and years and years, if you’re not still curious, like you need to be always learning. You never know everything.

Cliff:
[1:09:36] Yeah. Like, you know, and there’s like. Each day, every week, I become randomly hyper-fixated on something else, right? Like, I went through, I’m constantly looking for growth rings. And if I don’t see even, like, the faintest growth ring, I’ll just say, like, all right, I’ll just, like, make a little note in my head. And I’m like, all right, well, I haven’t noticed this tortoise grow. Like, let me weigh it, right? Right. And then tortoises, right? Like my adults, obviously, like they’re not getting bigger, like visibly, but they should still have like a little bit of a growth ring or something. Like there’s an indicator that lets you know that, hey, this guy is like on track.

Wendy:
[1:10:28] Yeah.

Cliff:
[1:10:28] And paying attention to those like nuances will put you in the right direction.

Wendy:
[1:10:34] All right. Well, thank you, Cliff, so much for joining me today. And for everyone tuning in, be sure to subscribe or follow so you don’t miss our next episode. People have questions. Where can they find you?

Cliff:
[1:10:48] You can find me. Instagram is probably the easiest. Pink Torts, P-I-N-K-T-O-R-T-Z. And I have a small YouTube channel, Pink Torts Again. Please check it out. I just did a video with Vic Morgan on phayrei. And I’m just so incredibly happy and thankful to be a part of this community. Thank you for having me. Thank you, TTPG, as well. It’s honestly really humbling that you asked me. And I’ve been thinking about this all week.

Wendy:
[1:11:23] Well, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Cliff:
[1:11:27] Of course. Yeah no that is awesome thank you I really I couldn’t be more thankful.

Music:
[1:11:35] Thanks for joining us for turtle tea with TTPG if you love this episode be sure to subscribe and leave us a comment we’re brewing up new episodes every two weeks you can find all of our show notes links and guest info at turtle tea.org until next time keep learning listening and loving those turtles.