McCord’s Box Turtles – Social, Comical and Extinct in the Wild

Transcript

Introduction to McCord’s Box Turtles

Anthony:
[0:00] They were so expensive and rare and all of that. And now more and more people are getting the chance to experience them. And I think that’s a wonderful thing.

Wendy:
[0:11] Hi, I’m Wendy Montroy, and this is Turtle Tea with TTPG. Today, we’re talking to Anthony Pierlioni about McCord’s box turtles. And that’s Cuora mccordi. Did I have that right?

Anthony:
[0:22] It sure is.

Wendy:
[0:23] All right.

Anthony:
[0:24] More importantly, you pronounced my last name right. So that was beautiful.

Wendy:
[0:28] Oh, very good. Usually I look at things and then I mangle them.

Anthony:
[0:33] I’m telling you.

Wendy:
[0:34] I’m two for two. You’re doing something right.

Anthony:
[0:36] Yeah, this is going to be a good day.

Wendy:
[0:38] All right. So I really appreciate you joining me today. Before we kind of get into it, let’s start with why McCord’s Box Turtles? How did that start for you?

Anthony:
[0:49] Why not? Well, you know, I saw them. I was just reminiscing the other day because Mark, your co-host for the Meet-A-Member, Mark and I went to the National Zoo, I guess a couple of weeks ago now.

Wendy:
[1:03] In D.C.?

Anthony:
[1:04] Yeah, in Washington, D.C., the Smithsonian.

Wendy:
[1:07] That’s my home-stopping zoo. So, yeah.

Anthony:
[1:09] Oh, cool, cool, cool. Yeah. And that I went there in 2015 for like a little behind the scenes. And that was the first time that I saw Cora McCordi. And up until that point, I really, you know, love them and was so intrigued by them. I mean, they look like Flavos, Chinese box turtles, but they’re different. They’re more like streamlined and they’re kind of like a mix. They kind of like have the coloration of a Chinese box turtle, the markings, you know, but then the The shape is a little more towards some of those more aquatic Asian box turtles from the genus Cora. So a little, you know, skinnier, longer head and neck, kind of like you see with Tripasiata or Pani or Arocapitata. I was just very intrigued by them. Back then, I can remember a male being offered for sale for $45,000 on one of the online, I know, classified sites. And just thinking, like, what an honor it would be to see them one day. So I obviously saw them. And things have changed a lot since then. You know, most of them that were produced were going to China.

The Shift in Breeding Practices

Anthony:
[2:18] And that has since stopped. So there are more people breeding them in the U.S. than ever.

Wendy:
[2:24] Most being produced in the U.S. were going to China?

Anthony:
[2:28] Correct.

Wendy:
[2:29] Okay.

Anthony:
[2:30] Yep. So that stopped now. So if you’re someone who’s like never thought you’d be able to work with this species, you’re going to get your chance. You know, they’re not necessarily as cheap as Chinese box turtles or as available as Chinese box turtles, but you will get your chance because they’re not going back to China to go back to the wild. And we’ll talk about that when we talk about the situation of the species in the wild. but they’re also not going back for like the pet trade in China anymore either, which is why all those animals were going back to China. They have enough there now. There’s quite a few in human care. Trying to stop saying, my goal is to stop saying the word captivity. I’ve decided I want to say human care.

Wendy:
[3:07] Okay.

Anthony:
[3:08] Yeah. Captivity isn’t a place we’d want to be, but we’d want to be cared for. So I want to say human care. Yeah.

Wendy:
[3:14] No, I like that. Thank you. So I actually saw Mark posted some recently. Are those ones of yours that he’s raising up or?

Anthony:
[3:23] Yeah. Yeah.

Wendy:
[3:24] Okay.

Anthony:
[3:25] I don’t like to sell animals. It makes me feel icky. And you might be sitting there thinking like, oh, you know, but if he sells them.

Wendy:
[3:33] What’s the difference?

Anthony:
[3:34] I just, I’d rather not.

Wendy:
[3:36] Pass them to friends or.

Anthony:
[3:38] Yeah. And my favorite thing to do is to trade, but sometimes you need to do three-way trades. You know, the person who has the animal you want just wants cash. So I just say just send the cash that way. And as long as the animal goes to a good place, then I’m happy.

The Significance of the Name

Wendy:
[3:53] Very cool. So before we dive into their natural history, let’s talk about their name. So normally when you see a scientific name, you assume that it’s some dude from the 1800s who, you know, cataloged them for the first time. Now, that’s completely different here because who these turtles are named after is actually still living and actually a mentor of yours. Is that right?

Anthony:
[4:19] That’s true. Yeah. A hero of mine. Absolutely. And a very long-standing member of the TTPG and a founding member of the TSA at one point was at that first meeting, to my understanding, and all of that. But somebody who describes species, that’s Bill McCord. But some people sometimes will confuse it and think that he described McCord’s box turtle, but that’s not how it works. Basically, you name a species after a friend. And that’s like, you know, I scratch your back, you scratch mine sort of thing. So he did not describe McCord’s box turtle. It was described by Ernst in 1988, if I’m not mistaken. And yeah, it was named after Bill McCord.

Wendy:
[5:06] We’ll get into the natural history, but I just want to call out, really, we don’t know a lot about their natural history. You mentioned they were, I guess, first named in, what was it, 88?

Anthony:
[5:17] Mm-hmm. Yep.

Wendy:
[5:18] And like normally we would go into their native range and, As far as I know, we’re not finding them in their native range now.

Anthony:
[5:31] Yeah, they haven’t been found in the wild now for, what, 16 years? 2010 was the last time that one of these was found in the wild. What’s really interesting, and if you’re ever interested in learning more about any of the species in the Cora genus, which is Asian box turtles, check out Cora.org. So C-U-O-R-A.org. And that’s Torsten Blank’s website. And Torsten is really the world’s leading expert, especially English-speaking, for those of us uncultured Americans like myself who like to read in English. He’s definitely the world’s leading authority on Asian box turtles from this genus. And he’s got a write-up of—and most of the describing of species within this century in this genus have all been done, have all involved Torsten. So anyway, on his website, he’s got a write up for each one of the taxa within the Cora genus, which is really, really helpful. And one thing that he wrote on there, I mean, he only reports like what actually happened, you know, it’s very, his, his process is very scientific. And he’s got on there that the McCord’s box turtle was so common as recent as the 1970s that farmers would pick them up and throw them at their livestock.

Historical Context of McCord’s Box Turtles

Wendy:
[6:47] What?

Anthony:
[6:48] Yeah. Like what a random.

Wendy:
[6:50] They were so calm and now they’re just completely gone.

Anthony:
[6:54] Yeah. But why throw them at the livestock anyway? Is that like, I don’t know. I’ve never been a livestock farmer. So I don’t know if like you throw things at them or whip them or something.

Wendy:
[7:03] What the thought process is of.

Anthony:
[7:04] That in my mind that’s what it is yeah like okay when i have to move my herd i’m going to collect you know five box turtles have them in my little man purse and then when i need them to move i’m going to start throwing chucking box turtles at them i don’t know there’s more of those than there were rocks on the ground i guess that’s crazy yeah i think of like steve erwin like the ground is thick with them that was really bad impression impression but so.

Wendy:
[7:28] What happened in those 10 20 years? What were the pressures on them?

Anthony:
[7:34] Well, they had a very… It’s not a tiny range necessarily, but a very kind of specific range. And we’re also easy to collect. And then I do think that there have been some practices like logging practices and things like that that have also taken their toll on the species as well. But I think they’re just easy to collect. And, you know, there’s definitely a fascination in Southeast Asia, particularly in China, with turtles that are gold in color. You know, for the yellow-headed box turtle, Cora arocapitata, or this species, which has a very yellow head, that’s not good. Obviously, the Chinese box turtle also has a yellow head, but, you know, they have a much larger range and perhaps are a little more, like, fossorial in nature, spend a lot of time, you know, dug in the substrate.

Wendy:
[8:25] Maybe in leaf litter or, yeah.

Anthony:
[8:27] Yeah. I mean, macordi are something else. They, you know, I know we’re not talking about behavior yet, but I mean, they really, they communicate with each other. They even, you know, communicate with their keeper, you know, in human care. So it’s a wild thing.

Current Threats to the Species

Wendy:
[8:43] So, basically, they have the same issues that all wild turtles are facing right now with habitat loss and being taken for the pet trade. Those seem like the big two.

Anthony:
[8:54] Yeah, it’s a combination of the two. And the other piece, too, it’s not just being taken for the pet trade, because I think a lot of animals are just kind of victims of that regardless. A lot of turtles are victims of that regardless. But there’s something to be said for when an animal is really in demand. So, you know, this is a turtle that people wanted as soon as they knew that there was something different and it had a yellow head. You know, you think of Trifosciata, the golden coin turtle, you know, thought to cure cancer. That’s not a good thing for that turtle species, right? And right now in North America, it’s our Eastern box turtles that are being taken and sent to Asia right now because those are kind of what’s in vogue. It’s almost like fashion. Things kind of come into and out of fashion with animals and what people are wanting to get their hands on. It happened around 2016 with Quangtung River Turtles. All of a sudden, they were popular and everybody wanted them. And you know a turtle that was 25 or that you could barely even give away at times all of a sudden was now 2,500 for a hatchling and people were like putting their kids through college with turtles that they just bred for years because they enjoyed it.

Wendy:
[10:06] Right and actually bred them when they were the 25 turtle.

Anthony:
[10:10] Right right and i i have them and breed them here limited you know in limited numbers but you know they’re back to being a turtle that you could barely give away but right for those of us that do it i was late to the party some people were way early to the party and then you know made out because of that but you know i don’t do it for that and there’s many people that that don’t do it for that so.

Wendy:
[10:32] All right. Well, let’s dive into captive care a little bit. Would you consider them hard to keep, or are they more of an easy kind of beginner species?

Anthony:
[10:44] Yeah, it’s funny, too, right? We always want to call beginner species the ones that are easy to acquire, too.

Captive Care Insights

Anthony:
[10:51] Like, ready-to-sliders are beginners. No, they’re not. They’re very hard to keep.

Wendy:
[10:56] Yeah, right.

Anthony:
[10:57] Filtration and lighting and basking and clean water and diet. And oh, wait, you want to? Well, guess what? Now they’re fighting. So I think I think quorum I’m just going to call them a cord eye for the rest of this. I think McCordi are, I would call them easy. Anything can happen, right? Anytime you get an animal, there’s some risk. Even if the person who you acquire the animal from is doing everything right and all signs point to this being a great animal and great health and great source and then the person who’s getting it is a great placement and, You’re trying to do everything that the person who you got it from did so that the transition is smooth. Stuff still happens. So with all that being said, I do think that they are easy. They’re as easy as a Chinese box turtle is.

Wendy:
[11:53] Okay.

Anthony:
[11:53] Which I think I would argue is one of the easier turtles that you can keep. You see a lot of people not keep them well and they still live for decades and decades in human care.

Wendy:
[12:04] Which is almost to their detriment that their turtles are so hardy that they can live through a lot of stuff that is pretty terrible.

Anthony:
[12:12] Exactly. And we’ve all seen them just die out of nowhere, you know, after a day and not know what’s going on or just one day, but then also live forever, even though they’ve been kept too dry and they grow all wonky and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think the only issue with them is the same issue that I would say about Chinese box turtles or red-eared sliders or so many other species, which is when you keep them together, there tends to be a little bit of aggression at times. And Cora mccordi, they like to bite each other’s neck, which is something that Asian box turtles, the group that we would formally call Cora amboinensis, which has now been split into a bunch of species and subspecies, they do that. Cora trifosciata, the golden coin turtles, do that. Chinese box turtles do it to a degree not quite as directed at the neck as the mccordi do, but that’s basically the biggest issue with them. But if you’re keeping a single turtle, then mccordi are as easy as it gets. I would just also question, well, if you’re keeping just one, why would you keep… Of something that’s extinct in the wild. Why would you keep just one? Like we should probably breed them. Even though these aren’t going back to the wild because there’s nowhere to send them back to.

Social Dynamics in Captivity

Wendy:
[13:30] Right.

Anthony:
[13:30] So there’s no habitat or place.

Wendy:
[13:34] In groups? And when you do, are you watching for anyone that’s picking on anyone if you have to split up groups?

Anthony:
[13:43] Yeah. So when they’re young, I’ll start with the life stages. So when they’re young, I sometimes have kept them, like during hatchling season, I’m overrun with hatchlings and I tend to keep some hatchlings together. So it’s good to have like a fake plant and things like that so they can get away from each other a little bit. They do pretty well, had a couple minimal like nip tails, but for the most part, they grow really fast. They’re very active. They come running up for food. I just keep them, just like any box turtle or terrestrial leaf turtle type species, I’ll keep them in a little bit of water. and just drop pellets right into the water. Some people like to take them out of where they live to eat because turtle food makes way more of a mess than turtle poop.

Wendy:
[14:24] Yeah.

Anthony:
[14:25] Yeah, I’m just, I guess I’m lazy, but I end up doing more work cleaning that way. I don’t know. It’s easier for me to just throw pellets and then when I have time, clean everybody. Yeah. Because they need to eat when they need to eat. Anyway, they do really well in those setups. They grow fast. If there are some that are growing a little slower than others, and this goes with most species, I’ll separate them out and try to keep the larger ones with the larger ones. There’s this threshold a lot of times with turtles, and this is just a general thing with turtles in general. When you have a certain pellet size where the turtles need to break up the pellet, they’ve got all day. They’ve got nothing to do but eat the pellet, so that’s fine. But when you get one that gets a little bit larger and they can take a pellet or even three pellets down without having to break it apart and then the other ones are still a little bit smaller where they have to break it apart a little bit, you have to watch because those big ones will just hungry, hungry hippo all the pellets and then not leave any for the smaller ones who are eating slower and they get a smaller portion, a much smaller portion than they need if they’re trying to keep up with the others. Exactly. And then stress and things like that factor in too. So just something to watch. The best way to keep them would be to keep them individually. even when they’re young.

Housing and Habitat Considerations

Anthony:
[15:36] Once they start growing, they become sexable around three inches, I’d say. You can start to see, and you’re looking for the cloaca to extend past the rim of the caracus. Sorry, I’m going off on the squirrel moment. But when I keep the adults, I do keep them in a group. I have an adult group of 3.3, and they’re mostly terrestrial. They have to have water and land. Some people keep more water than land. I have more land than water they like to dig down in the substrate particularly, in the winter they’ll go down for me and just be down for six months without eating they don’t have to though to breed anyway I do keep them we could talk about all those things in more depth but I do keep them together and you know there is some aggression so there have been times where I’ve taken a few males out that are really rambunctious to give them a time out Which is all stuff that I’ve done with other species as well.

Wendy:
[16:37] Yeah. Are you keeping them in waterland tubs or?

Anthony:
[16:40] Yeah.

Wendy:
[16:41] Okay.

Anthony:
[16:41] Yeah, I have that 3.3 in a medium waterland tub. I don’t use the water section of land waterland tubs.

Wendy:
[16:50] Okay.

Anthony:
[16:51] Because it gets full of everything. So I’ll put in like a cement mixing tub sideways on one end. And then I cut a little U shape out of the side. so it’s shallower. And then I put rocks in the water and in front of the water so that they’re walking from rock and then rock in the tub, another rock in the tub before they go in the water so there’s less trampling in the substrate.

Wendy:
[17:17] Of substrate, yeah.

Anthony:
[17:18] Yeah, yeah. If you use a land water tub and use the water section, you’re going to be cleaning that water section out like daily or it’s just going to be…

Wendy:
[17:26] It’s going to be full of dirt.

Anthony:
[17:27] It’s going to be mud, yeah.

Wendy:
[17:29] So, do they, I know you were saying they spend a lot of time on the land. For your juveniles, are you keeping them mostly aquatic, or do they have a place they can kind of get out of the water?

Anthony:
[17:44] Yeah, juveniles are mostly in water. Okay. But it’s very shallow, so it doesn’t cover their shell or anything like that. It’s just very shallow water so they can take a drink. Like, it’s the same way that I raise small terrestrial box turtles of both North American and Asian types, and then also leaf turtles as well. And they just grow fast and smooth, and the pellets are great for them, especially when they’re young. Try to do a pellet mixture so that they get variety.

Temperature and Lighting Needs

Anthony:
[18:12] But they do, you know, they do really well like that.

Wendy:
[18:17] Do they need heat lamps, UV? What are you doing for that?

Anthony:
[18:21] Yeah, I don’t provide UV for the really small ones. I have a whole article that I wrote on the subject for the Batiger with snake rack keeping. I think things like… Stress and humidity, the stress level, the humidity level and diet are definitely at the top of the list in terms of what makes a neonate box turtle of any kind feel comfortable and grow and thrive. I think, you know, people think about UVB and how important it is because we need to provide something natural. But a neonate to juvenile box turtle will almost live a life that’s fossorial.

Wendy:
[19:04] It’ll never be out in the open.

Anthony:
[19:05] Yeah, when you look at research for box turtles, it’s totally devoid of any information on neonates because they’re basically living in the wet, nasty, muddy puddle that’s full of leaves that you try to avoid stepping in. That’s where they live. And guess what else lives down there? Like worms and invertebrates and amphibians and their eggs. So there’s a whole bunch of, good stuff that happens down there that those turtles would love and wouldn’t need to leave. They can just stay right there and hide, maybe poke their nose up just to get some air. But if they’re in direct light, these are prey animals. If they’re in direct light, that means that they’re going to get picked up by a bird or something.

Wendy:
[19:54] Yep. That’s what I was going to say. If they’re out in the open, they’re dead because everything.

Anthony:
[20:00] Yeah. And I think you would take that as like a kind of a line to not cross or to at least keep in mind. If it’s a sun worshiping basking species that comes up out of the pond and is up on a log in the sunshine, then that’s a species that probably needs UVB as a youngster. Right. Your painted turtles, your sliders, things like that. But a turtle that you might just cross paths with, like just happen to bump into, you know, on a wet morning, that’s not a species that you may, that may need UVBs, particularly when it’s young. And you’re also not bumping into a one-year-old eastern box turtle most of the time that’s out on the run, right? And the researchers will tell you, and we do deal with it with North American

Dietary Preferences

Anthony:
[20:48] wood turtles as well. That’s a species that’s pretty cryptic. And, you know, for our research, we’re out there and for like every baby we find, we find a hundred adults. So, you know, where are those babies? They’re hidden. They’re hidden. They’re not on a log basket.

Wendy:
[21:04] Right. Because if they were, they wouldn’t make it. So, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Do you do UV for your adults or?

Anthony:
[21:13] Yes. Yeah. I use a mercury vapor bulb. You know, it’s a big habitat for them, over six feet long. And the lamp is just off to one portion of the habitat. And then I have plant growth bulbs on that are on all the time, too. And that, you know, grows up the plants, which obviously make them feel secure. I had a pretty big elephant. I have an arboricola, like an umbrella plant in there. And then I have a pretty large, I guess it’s a banana plant now that Mark brought over. Mark is my green thumb friend. He helps me so much. It’s ridiculous. But I did have for several years in there, maybe four years, a large elephant ear plant that was growing pretty well. And then for whatever reason, last year it died towards the fall. And then Mark just came over one day when I wasn’t home and there was a new plant there. So that’s what type of friend he is.

Wendy:
[22:10] Are you using soil for substrate if you’ve got plants?

Anthony:
[22:14] Yeah, I use a mixture. I like a mixture of topsoil, peat moss, mulch, and sometimes I’ll put in a little bit of sphagnum, maybe in the corners, that sort of thing.

Wendy:
[22:24] To kind of hold humidity.

Anthony:
[22:25] Yeah. And every, I’m kind of on a cycle. I do the same thing with my leaf turtles. In the fall, I collect oak leaves and just fill the habitats with oak leaves, even indoors. And the turtles just go down under the soil, under the leaves.

Wendy:
[22:38] Oh, they love it.

Anthony:
[22:39] Yeah, it’s just, you can tell. They just are, you know, a lot of the turtles start breeding when the leaves get put in, you know, they just, it’s like, it totally shakes up their little world. And, you know, one of my talks at the TDPG in 2024 was about like environmental triggers and their importance in breeding. And I mean, I don’t know how important the falling of leaves are for some of these species, but it sure looks like it is.

Wendy:
[23:07] Yeah, I could see that.

Anthony:
[23:08] Those leaves hit the ground and they’re breeding and eating and running around. And it’s just, it’s wild. It’s like how, you know, some people act when snow falls and they just get all excited.

Wendy:
[23:20] Yeah, I was going to say, like, I don’t want to be anthropomorphic, but they really seem to enjoy it. Like anytime we take a fresh big thing of leaves and put it in for any of them, the yellow foots, like, we’ll fill their house with it. And then every single one is in there and you can’t see them. They’re just tunneled under.

Anthony:
[23:40] Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely see it. And, you know, if things like seasonal availability of food items or, you know, temperature swings, humidity, barometric pressure, all these different things that are changing as the season goes on, you know, for an animal, a species like a leaf turtle or like a smaller box turtle that hides in the leaves. I mean, that’s a game changer. When those leaves hit the ground, that is a game changer. Yeah. Go lay on the ground with no leaves and then lay on the ground with leaves and.

Wendy:
[24:12] You know. And see how safe you feel.

Anthony:
[24:15] Everything just looks different, like, right? So their perspective is totally different and they’re just living in a completely different world. Like, relatively quickly, if you think about, you know, the whole, the seasonality, the changes that happen throughout a year, those leaves really do fall pretty abruptly and it changes their whole world.

Behavioral Observations

Wendy:
[24:34] Yeah, definitely. How active or interactive would you say they are? Are they hiding from you? Are they running out to see what you’ve got to eat?

Anthony:
[24:43] They’re just comical. I’m telling you, they are just comical. They watch you. Sometimes they run away once in a while. I have a couple that are more shy than others. For the most part, though, they’re coming toward you. At the very least, they’re watching you trying to figure out what you’re up to. They’re just kind of like it’s almost like they’re judging you as you walk around the room. But they do run out for food as well. And they do this thing. So most people who have watched our YouTube videos on Just Turtles have seen the intro video where the turtle says, subscribe. And he’s yawning.

Wendy:
[25:19] Yeah.

Anthony:
[25:20] Subscribe. Yeah.

Wendy:
[25:21] Yep.

Anthony:
[25:21] I love that. So that’s the female. Okay. And that clip is actually longer than that. And at the beginning, it’s the male. So my index fingers are like McCord-eye heads right now. So the male comes up and he’s like, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, you know, and he’s doing this little flutter thing where he bobs his head really, really fast. And then a lot of times they talk to each other and they go back and forth. Males do it to each other, males to females and vice versa. Female, like they all do it. And, In that video, the male comes up and he’s doing it to her and then she kind of turns and then yawns in his face because he’s like bored by him.

Wendy:
[26:00] Which is so funny.

Anthony:
[26:01] Yeah, he’s coming up and like, hey, you know, I’m the man for you. And she’s like, I’ve heard it all before, buddy, and yawns in his face. But they do communicate all the time to one another and it goes both ways. So this isn’t just a male, you know, who’s trying to, who to breed. And this isn’t just, you know, territory, territory, what’s the word?

Wendy:
[26:24] Territoriality.

Anthony:
[26:25] That’s what I’m looking for. Yeah. It didn’t want to, it didn’t seem right. It’s not, it’s not aggression. It’s, it’s, it’s really some sort of communication that I can’t like wrap my head around. But the craziest part is that when they come up and like, you know, they’re, especially the males, like their head and neck is like the size of my index finger. And you can, I’ve done it a few times where I’ve, I’ve done this with my finger near them and they actually come up and talk to my finger.

Wendy:
[26:55] Really?

Anthony:
[26:55] Yes. So crazy. Like before they realize what’s happening, like I’ll just peek it around a plant or something like that. They’re just, they’re incredible. They really are. And it’s funny because most people just haven’t been able to know the species because, they, you know, they just haven’t. They were so expensive and rare and all of that. And now more and more people are getting the chance to experience them. And I think that’s a wonderful thing.

Wendy:
[27:23] Yeah. I mean, you’d think if they developed that kind of deep of communication that they must have been social in some way in the wild.

Anthony:
[27:31] Totally. There’s no doubt in my mind. And if they were as common as it’s reported that they were just, you know, five decades ago or whatever it is, Then, yeah, I mean, they were, they could have been just bumping into each other all the time and talking the whole way and, and all of that. And now that whole existence is gone, which if they’re that social, then it’s almost like its own, like civilization in a way. Obviously they’re not like. Building their own roads or anything like that. But I guess, I don’t know, maybe there are, if there are little like turtle trails or whatever through the plants, you know, from resources and things that they’re moving towards in different parts of the habitat. I don’t know. And it’s just sad to me because, and again, I’m not trying to anthropomorphize, but, you know, that habitat is all but gone to my understanding. And I’ve never been to where they would have lived before. There are a lot of species that I work with where I’ve been to the habitat and that’s a crazy experience in itself. But it’s just sad knowing that this is a species where you can’t do that, even if you really wanted to, truly. And also, whatever did exist only a few short decades ago is now gone, and this is happening in real time. We talk about the giant tortoise species that lived in Florida, or the dodo bird, or the mastodon, and all these species that lived with humans that are now gone, you know, several of the Galapagos tortoises and even, you know.

Anthony:
[29:01] Aldabra tortoises, taxa, that are now gone.

The Future of McCord’s Box Turtles

Anthony:
[29:04] It’s really sad to see this happening right now with this amazing species that even turtle lovers and turtle experts haven’t had the chance to truly experience.

Wendy:
[29:15] Yeah. And if people aren’t breeding them in captivity, they’re truly going to be gone.

Anthony:
[29:20] Yeah. And this is what I use all the time, too. And this is There’s nothing against our friends at the zoo, at the zoos, because the zoos have bred this species, but they haven’t bred as many as the private folks. Torsten’s website lists that there’s roughly 700 to 800 specimens in human care worldwide. There’s way more than that now. But I think this is where we’re starting to turn the corner because this website is only a couple of years old and he knows. But I guarantee you, if we were to look at that estimate now would be more like, 1500 or that’s.

Wendy:
[30:02] Still such a small population.

Anthony:
[30:03] That’s scary definitely yeah yeah yep for sure and they’re just the coolest you know people talk all the time about chinese box turtles as we call them flavos that they’re like the best turtle you can have they’re so, charismatic they’re their behavior and you know it’s just second to none they don’t they don’t really hold a candle to mccordi in my opinion wow that’s crazy because i’ve heard.

Wendy:
[30:29] A lot People say that about Flavos, that they’re the best, they’re the coolest.

Anthony:
[30:33] And the difference is a lot of people have kept Flavos.

Wendy:
[30:36] Yeah.

Anthony:
[30:36] Now, you know, I keep a lot of people love. Now, I have things that people don’t love. I have flowerback box turtles. They’re like, they just sit there for four months and then they move and it gets all exciting or they start barking at each other. And then it’s like, oh, my gosh, this is the coolest. I keep, as you know, in the shirt you’re wearing, of course, spider tortoises. I love them. It’s kind of like when you love a movie. Yeah. That’s that you know isn’t good like like masters of the universe 1987 like that that’s a bad movie but i loved it when i was a kid and like so i’m like oh man that movie is so good i know it’s not good like i’m not going to tell people it’s good spider tortoises yeah i’m not going to tell people spider tortoises are the best to keep like they’re they’re one of my absolute favorite things in the world and i love them every i love them more every day that passes but i wouldn’t recommend them because we see what happens with those is people get them and then they say, what the heck? This thing sleeps for six months. I don’t like this anymore. And then now animals are being displaced and resold and we don’t want any of that.

Wendy:
[31:39] The cage behind me is spider tortoises.

Anthony:
[31:43] Love it. And I know you love them and I know you understand them. Yeah.

Wendy:
[31:46] And that’s the reason when I set up that cage, it’s really heavily planted. So it’s attractive and it’s pretty and it’s got a violet in there. It’s got stuff that’s flowering. and so when they went down for their long sleep like it’s still and i you know can look in every day and see if anyone’s awake and they’re still asleep i’m but.

Anthony:
[32:07] When they wake up it’s awesome.

Wendy:
[32:08] Yeah because there’s they’re out all the time and they’re looking at you and they’re coming around for second breakfast and yes they’re super active second.

Anthony:
[32:16] Breakfast i love that yeah but but i don’t tell people hey.

Wendy:
[32:20] Right spider.

Anthony:
[32:21] Tortoises are the best because they’re not the best for everyone. They’re the best for you and I, Wendy. I would recommend McCord Eye to anyone because I don’t care who you are. You’re going to enjoy them. And I honestly do believe that. To know a McCord’s Box Turtle is to love a McCord’s Box Turtle.

Wendy:
[32:42] All right. So let’s say that you’ve convinced somebody, Where can they get them? Are they still crazy expensive? Are they hard to get?

Accessibility and Availability

Wendy:
[32:52] Do you have to know people?

Anthony:
[32:53] No, I don’t think so. You know, it’ll be seasonal. They don’t lay eggs all year. The eggs don’t hatch all year. So it’s going to be seasonal. You’re going to look for them in the late summer, early fall, maybe then going through into the winter. Because people who keep these tend to try to head start them well. It’s not like a, hey, get them out the door sort of thing. You know, somebody with 10 just started making for sale posts on Fauna Classifieds. You mentioned, you know, Mark had some. So they’re definitely out there more now. There are people, I don’t even know like how I should say this, but I think there are people who are frustrated by the fact that they’re starting to sell for less.

Wendy:
[33:39] Yeah.

Anthony:
[33:40] Because they’re not going to China anymore, and there are more breeders of them than ever in the U.S.

Wendy:
[33:46] Which is going to bring the price down. Right.

Anthony:
[33:49] And they breed well. They don’t take forever to mature. They lay several clutches a year, and their fertility is usually pretty good as long as there’s a male who’s doing what males do. And when you have a fertile egg, they hatch. Now, for some species, like Geoamida japonica, the Ryuka black-bristled-leaf turtle, I don’t get my hopes up, or my flowerback box turtles. When I get eggs from these things, I don’t ever get my hopes up. I still haven’t hatched a galbinifrond, even though I’ve gotten eggs for like three years now.

Anthony:
[34:27] They’re just hard to hatch, even when you get a fertile egg. That’s hardworking, too. There are some species that if you have the incubation down, like spider tortoise, they’re pretty easy to hatch as long as they’re laying fertile eggs. McCord eye are one of those things. They’re rare, so you want to dial it all in. But I bet you could hatch those on gravel, sim. I’ve put them on a shelf and just left them there. But I bet you can hatch them any way you want. I bet they’re just as easy to hatch as anything. I think they’re just as easy to keep as anything. It’s just when you have adult turtles. One thing Bill McCord told me that he said to me, which is kind of meant to be funny. It’s a joke, but it’s so true. Is if you want to kill a turtle breed it because it makes everything more complicated when you have these adult turtles together and there are these yeah rambunctious males or for some species like the the four-eyed turtles the cichalia species the females are the aggressors and like regardless when you put adult turtles together you there’s risk involved you up the risk yeah you do you everything goes all risks go up exponentially and you have to just be on your toes and providing sight breaks and maybe giving males timeouts as I do with Cormacordi, that sort of thing.

Final Thoughts on Keeping McCordi

Wendy:
[35:43] So is there anything that would make you not recommend this species? I mean, do they do okay outside or is that something you wouldn’t even attempt?

Anthony:
[35:53] I don’t know anyone who keeps them outside, but I think they would do well. Okay. I just, I don’t know that they’re as cold tolerant as Flavos are, Chinese box turtles. You know, I’ve had Chinese box turtles survive outside here several times. And I wouldn’t do that with these animals. I don’t know. It’s possible that they might be more cold tolerant than we give them credit for, but then they’re so easy to breed in a sense, they don’t need to cool. Most of these temperate species and a lot of the Asian species, people just don’t understand why aren’t they breeding, why aren’t they breeding? Because you’re not cooling them. A flavo won’t breed consistently if you don’t cool it. A flowerback box turtle won’t breed consistently or breed at all unless you’re cooling it. The leaf turtles, the spanglerii, they won’t breed consistently unless you’re cooling them. So, McCord, I don’t need that. I’ve seen them breed consistently without being cooled. So, I think in a lot of ways, they are as easy as it gets, but you just have to be mindful of the things you have to be mindful of with turtles.

Wendy:
[37:03] Don’t have to plan on putting them in the fridge.

Anthony:
[37:06] Right. Yeah, a little bit of fluctuation is enough. But yeah, my room, where they are, It probably gets around 60, maybe 58, 59 Fahrenheit in the winter, and they go under the substrate, and I don’t see them for four, five, six months, and they just eat nothing. So super simple.

Wendy:
[37:26] Okay. Do you think their care is similar to any of the other quora species or are they somewhat unique?

Anthony:
[37:33] That’s a really good question. So when we were writing, when Russ and I were writing the big green book, Turtle Preservation Book, I spoke to Torsten because I wanted to make sure I was breaking things up right. We had to think about all of that from a keeping perspective. It’s not just what the nomenclature says, what’s most related to what. It’s really like, all right, I’m going to try to keep this thing healthy and alive and thriving in human care. And so when you look at the North American box turtles, you have a couple of aquatic turtles in that group. You have the Gulf Coast box turtle and the Coelan box turtle, and then all the rest are pretty terrestrial. And there’s even variation within that. right you have like the desert well i guess now it’s just they’re all ornate box turtles but those are more terrestrial than some of the others in the asian box turtles it’s the same thing and really it’s crazy that some of these turtles are in the same genus you know when you have.

Anthony:
[38:27] Like the cora pannae and arvocapitata where the males are so small they look like little pumpkin seeds and then the females are way bigger and they’re like super flat with long skinny heads and necks, and they’re super aquatic. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have Chinese box turtles and the three flower back box turtle species. And, you know, they’re all very terrestrial. Then you have the jagged shelled box turtle, Cora mahoutii, and that used to be Pixidaea and the, Chinese box turtle used to be, and these are still considered by some to be these other genera. They were cystoclemies because they’re different than one another. And Torsten, I checked with him before we were doing this because I wanted to split them into two, the aquatic and the terrestrial. Now, ultimately, we chose to put cora mccordi in the terrestrial group. Torsten argued that there should be three groups. And I’m like, oh.

Wendy:
[39:26] No, no, this is too much.

Anthony:
[39:27] This is too much. You can’t break this up too much. Like, yeah. So I would say, and he actually said, like, you know, they’re way more aquatic than you think. And if I was going to choose one, I might put them in the aquatic. I might think about putting them in the aquatic section. And I said, wow, that like blew my mind. As I said, I keep them more terrestrial than aquatic. But, and, you know, they have their choice. They have their run of the place. They very rarely sit in the water. They’re usually on the terrestrial portion for me. You know, it’s something to think about. They are more aquatic than you might consider, than some of us may consider, myself included. So, it’s complicated. Like so many turtle subjects, it’s complicated.

Wendy:
[40:11] Yeah. Yeah. And there’s always individuals within species that are going to kind of do their own thing as well. So.

Anthony:
[40:18] Yeah, that’s true. And then you have to also consider like, all right, if you have 3.3, like I do, three males, three females, then are any of them being impacted by the others? You know, is the one that’s that’s most timid, you know, hiding more? Is it hiding under the substrate because it’s being bullied? You know, you have to really think about these things, but there are, you know, if there was one that was in the water and the others were out, then it’s like, all right, it’s fighting everybody off of the water resource, but there’s not even that like 99% of the time, not exaggerating. There’s not a single turtle in the big water basin. They go into it, but they come right out. They don’t stay in it. I don’t know why. I know. Any other turtle I would expect, even like, you know, my, my flowerbacks and my jagged shelled box turtles. I’m trying to use common names so that people can follow if they don’t know all the Latin. Those guys sit in the water dish for days, sometimes weeks. The leaf turtles, they sit in the water dish, both species of the Geoemida leaf turtles. They’ll sit in their water dish for days, if not weeks. But these guys just have not done that for me as adults.

Wendy:
[41:25] Interesting. Is there anything we missed on human care for them?

Anthony:
[41:30] You’re so kind to say human care for me. Thank you. That just helps ingrain it in my brain, which is great. I don’t think we talked about diet. We could do that if you want.

Wendy:
[41:39] Okay.

Anthony:
[41:40] So for diet, I think these guys are as easy to feed as anything out there. They eat a variety of food items. They will run up enthusiastically. If I put out a plate of, you know, mixed food and I’ll get into what kind of some of the mixes are that I provide in a moment. But they also will run around enthusiastically if you put worms or things like that in their habitat. They just love to eat when they want to eat. And part of it may be a product of my keeping, that they are getting a long winter with me.

Wendy:
[42:23] Yeah, that’s true.

Anthony:
[42:25] When it’s time for them to eat, it’s kind of like spider tortoises. When they wake up, they’re ready to go. We know that because we’re spider tortoise lovers. You know, my mccordi are a lot like that. They are just eager, ready. When they decide they’re ready and that switch flips, they’re all about food.

Wendy:
[42:40] Will they eat greens and fruit, insects? Like, is it just kind of everything?

Anthony:
[42:46] It is. They’ll eat everything. They won’t, like, there are some, like several of my box turtles, I’ll just throw them like lettuce. As I’m feeding the tortoises, I’ll just save a little bit so I could throw a couple leaves of whatever, you know, a couple, couple little shreds of green leaf for the box turtles. Cause they like to nibble on it a little bit, but these guys, I’ve never seen them do that.

Wendy:
[43:09] Okay.

Anthony:
[43:10] They will, however, eat a mix where I can just put in whatever I want. So I’ll add greens to their mix and they’ll eat it in that. So what I use is a, and I do this for really all the terrestrial turtles. I will, I’ll use a food processor. And i do this like once a month i get like expiring produce from a local market i go in i pick up boxes and boxes of it generally i’m taking greens for the tortoises but as i see nice things like oh there’s a papaya ooh a couple tomatoes look all right here’s some grapes here’s some corn i take all sorts of weird stuff sweet potato any berries if i can get berries that don’t look horrible berries all the time like low glycemic index you know strawberries blueberries blackberries raspberries all that I’ll take like sometimes exotic things like dragon fruit anyway, I collect all these things and as I see them over the course of a month I just throw them in the freezer until I have just the freezers just jam-packed with stuff. And I take this huge like basin and when I’m ready to make it and I throw all of that stuff into the basin, like it’s like a big, huge bowl thing. And I let it defrost overnight. And then I pull out the food processor the next day and I just start processing all these things that I got, you know, all the stuff that was going bad in our house, but mostly stuff that I got from the market that they were going to throw out. Nothing with mold or anything like that.

Wendy:
[44:39] Do you do that with greens too? because I thought they would get like super slimy if you.

Anthony:
[44:43] Know some the greens I’m putting the greens I have to get more often and that’s why I’m going so often I might go once or twice a week and fill up on whatever greens I can get sometimes it’s a lot because that needs to go out and if I don’t feed those off in a couple days they’re nasty sometimes and I and I separate the greens based on what looks bad and what looks good and what goes bad the fastest so like red leaf lettuce, in case anyone’s wondering, goes bad really fast. Things like collards, mustard greens, kale, that stuff, which some of that stuff is high in oxalates and you don’t want to feed all the time, but a little bit, it’s okay. That stuff gets real stinky when it goes bad. So like I’m keeping all of that in mind and like the romaine that looks halfway decent, like, all right, I’m going to put that in a bag for like five days from now. And then the red leaf is going to get fed today and today yeah yeah that’s going because that’s going to be slime by like two days from now so by the time I have enough and I pull it all out and defrost it and it starts to it’s time to start using the food processor chop everything up I will also take some greens that I have that haven’t been frozen okay and add some into the mix and I’ll add calcium and if I can you know I’ll put in black soldier fly larvae or I’ll cook a pound of ground turkey or I’ll just add in whatever the heck just to make a nice.

Anthony:
[46:09] A nice mash of stuff that turtles like. And then it ends up being this really wet, soupy stuff. I take it and I put it into, they’re probably like four quarts. No, probably smaller than that. Maybe two or three quarts. I don’t know. Like your regular Tupperware that like a big guy like me would use for my lunch. And I’ll fill up like four, five, six of those. And then I’ll freeze them all except one. so that is one feeding for all the turtles and what i do i’ll dump it into a big basin so it’s just on the bottom and then to that i’ll add pellets and sometimes i’ll add a little water if it starts to get because you know the pellets soak up all that moisture it ends up becoming this really fragrant and if you’re doing it right and you have like a lot of berries a lot of strawberries and berries in there it’ll it’ll usually be like pink in color pink to purple in color with all the mixed up stuff and it’ll smell like fruit so it’ll be a mix of like a fruity smell even if you add in things like sweet potato greens and squash there’s all sorts of things that i’ll add in there it still smells fruity and so it’s attractive and yes and i generally feed that once once a week in the in the busy time but like i haven’t fed a mash like i probably have fed like one time a mash like that in the last like two months. I’ll still feed them over the winter, but like, It was a cold winter, and everything was out this year.

Wendy:
[47:38] I bet.

Anthony:
[47:39] Yeah. Anyway.

Wendy:
[47:41] All right. So did we cover everything for care?

Anthony:
[47:44] I think so. I mean, I could talk about them forever, but it’s not one of these species that you have to put a real ton of thought into their care. I think it’s just a matter of adult turtles do adult turtle things, and you have to be mindful of that. But, you know, if you’re looking for a turtle, if you’re not sure, like, you know, I’d love to keep them, but I’m not sure it’s worth the investment. You know, I spent a lot of money on my McCordi and they’re going for a lot less than what I paid for them now. And I don’t regret it.

Wendy:
[48:16] No regrets.

Anthony:
[48:17] That is how awesome they are and how positive the experience has been with them.

Wendy:
[48:24] Well, maybe we’ll convince some people.

Anthony:
[48:27] Just saying. And if anyone has any questions, I’m always happy to help.

Wendy:
[48:31] Yeah. So if people do have questions, where’s the best place to find you?

Anthony:
[48:36] That’s a good question. So I’m on Facebook as my name, Anthony Perleone. I’m the only Anthony Perleone in the world. You can find me on Instagram and YouTube under the name JustTurtles. I do respond to every comment on YouTube. Also, my email is anthony.perleone at theturtleroom.org. And you can contact me through that website as well. but I’m always happy to talk turtles. I tend to be a little bit flaky. You know, it’s funny. Like I can remember all these years, like feeling like, man, Russ Gurley, I like feel like we could be really good friends if, you know, if he just had more time and like, I don’t know, does he like me? I don’t know, because I wouldn’t hear back all the time. And there’s a bunch of people like that. And I remember thinking one day, if anyone ever wants to reach out to me, I’m going to always respond to everybody. And now here I am. And I literally can’t, and I’m dropping the ball all the time.

Wendy:
[49:29] Life gets in the way. Get busy.

Anthony:
[49:31] Yeah. It’s just tough. It’s just tough. So I want everyone to know that I love you out there and I want to help. So, and if you reach out and you don’t hear back from me right away, reach out again. I don’t mind reminders. So I appreciate it.

Upcoming Topics on Breeding and Care

Wendy:
[49:44] All right. Great. Thank you so much for joining me today. For everyone tuning in, be sure to subscribe or follow so you don’t miss our next episode, which is going to be about breeding mccordi and hatchling care. Thank you so much.

Anthony:
[49:59] Thank you. Thanks, everybody.