Three-Toed Box Turtles: A Fan Favorite

Transcript

Wendy:
[0:23] All right, we have a very special episode today. Turtle Tea is happy to participate

Special Episode: Turtle Tea and Charity

Wendy:
[0:27] in the fourth edition of PodcastThon. For one week, thousands of podcasts highlight a charity of their choice. Since TTPG is a registered nonprofit, basically every episode we do supports a charity, but this is a special opportunity for us to celebrate. Today we are talking to Cameron Lamb about three-toed box turtles. Cameron is a TTPG board member and runs the CPP, our propagation program, and our rescue program. Thank you so much for joining me today. I feel like you’re the perfect person for our podcast on episode.

Cameron:
[1:01] Thank you so much for having me. I know we’ve talked about it for a little while. I’m excited to be able to be a guest on it now.

Wendy:
[1:08] Well, we did kind of an informal poll to see what species people really wanted

Three-Toed Box Turtle Overview

Wendy:
[1:14] to hear about, and it was overwhelmingly box turtles. So I appreciate you talking to me about them today.

Cameron:
[1:20] That’s understandable. They’re great.

Wendy:
[1:24] So we’re talking about three-toed box turtles, which is terapene triungus. Is that right?

Cameron:
[1:32] Yeah. Terapene Carolina triungus or Mexicana, depending on which papers you’re reading.

Wendy:
[1:39] When I was doing research, it looks like it changes a lot. Yeah. So I figured I would ask you. Can you tell me how you got started with the species?

Cameron:
[1:50] Yeah. So I’m originally from California, and I grew up keeping turtles, tortoises, lizards, snakes, reptiles of all kinds. And when you do that, you’re kind of seen as kind of the weirdo where you gain a reputation of being the reptile guy. So as time progresses, people acquire animals or find a turtle or a tortoise here and there, and somehow they make it over to the reptile person. So I acquired a lot of animals as a young kid, and box turtles were always a part of that. You know, three-toed box turtles being probably one of your more centralized species of the U.S., They’re kind of all over in terms to the pet trade or just, you know, in people’s backyards. They’re a pretty common species. So that was one that I had gotten early on as a kid.

Natural History of Box Turtles

Wendy:
[2:44] Okay. So let’s take a quick look at their natural history. Their range is the Florida Panhandle to East Texas and then north to Kansas and Missouri. It looks like they overlap with several other box turtle species. Species, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but it looked like ornates eastern and Gulf Coast kind of touched on their range. Does that sound right?

Cameron:
[3:07] Yeah, they’re in a lot of pockets throughout the U.S. So, you know, they might occur in Missouri or Texas or Oklahoma, but they’re kind of spread out within certain zones within the states, and they do overlap with quite a few different species. Ornata is probably the most common that you’d see overlapping, but they also occur at where bulk golf goes to, even Florida’s and so forth. So they have a large range, but it’s definitely specific to the habitat throughout those.

Wendy:
[3:38] Okay. Do you know if there are naturally occurring integrates between the species?

Cameron:
[3:44] Yeah, and I think that’s why a lot of the confusion comes into play. They’re called three-toed box turtles, but it’s not uncommon for them to have four toes. And I think a lot of that does have to do with that overlapping, those integrates that you’ll see. Triangus, the word itself, tri means three, unguus means claw. So that’s how they kind of got their name. but it’s not always a defining characteristic of a three-todd box turtle.

Wendy:
[4:13] Okay. And it sounds like they are kind of in moist habitats, forests, fields, kind of swampy areas, and they do brumate in the colder months. I’m assuming that depends on where they are in the range.

Cameron:
[4:27] Yeah, definitely. They can take a huge difference in climate. They come from open prairies, grasslands, to dense wooded forestry areas. So they can take a good amount of variability in the habitat. But I think they prefer somewhere with a little bit more humidity, somewhere that they can dig into the soil and stay a little bit more cool.

Wendy:
[4:51] Okay. But they’re not as aquatic as like Florida box turtles.

Cameron:
[4:56] No, definitely not. Yeah, Florida box turtles, Gulf Coast box turtles, Those guys are regularly seen in streams and ponds. These guys will typically take advantage on a hot day and cool off in a body of water, but that’s probably not where you’re going to find them.

Wendy:
[5:11] Okay.

Legalities of Keeping Box Turtles

Wendy:
[5:12] So let’s talk a little bit about the legality of keeping them. I, from my research, it looks like it’s state to state, basically. I know Florida has the very strange possession limit of two box turtles per person per household for any of the North American species. But oddly enough, it looks like you’re still allowed to take them from the wild, limited to one per person per day, which seems really strange as a way to protect them.

Cameron:
[5:45] Yeah, it’s weird. Arizona, for example, is very similar to Florida. You can only own two of our desert ornates per adult or per household up to four, but that’s kind of an outdated law and you were supposed to have been grandfathered in. A lot of it seems to just fall in lines with whatever fishing regulations they have within the state. So as long as you’re a resident and you have your fishing license, You know, certain states will allow you to collect. I think one of them allows up to six per day. They just can’t be commercialized in any way. They can’t be sold. They can’t be bought, which is kind of, you know, kind of a strange, strange rule. You can take them. You just can’t sell them in certain states.

Wendy:
[6:29] Florida was the same way. You can take one per person per day, but it’s illegal to sell them their eggs or any parts of them.

Cameron:
[6:37] Right. Yeah. Yeah, and offspring, I believe you’re given a certain amount of time to relinquish those offspring that, you know, they happen to lay eggs or whatever. Now you end up with five or six babies. I think Florida gives you a certain amount of time for you to unload them.

Wendy:
[6:54] Are you supposed to put them back in the wild? That is just such a weird, I mean, what are you supposed to do?

Cameron:
[7:00] Exactly, what are they trying to accomplish here? I don’t really understand it.

Wendy:
[7:04] So I guess the lesson there is wherever you live, check your state laws just to see what’s legal. I guess in Arizona, is it just the desert ornate or are you limited on Easterns and others out of the range as well?

Cameron:
[7:20] It’s just the desert ornates. And since they’re not really even classified as their own species, there’s just not anybody who’s going to really monitor this ruling or really even be able to just differentiate in an ornate versus a desert ornate. So it gets a little cloudy. Best thing to do is just, you know, try not to commercialize things that are native to your area. Yeah. You know, so even certain states where they’re not native, they might outlaw the keeping of Carolina as a whole. So that would include Florida’s Gulf Coast, Three Toes. So it’s really specific to the state you live in. So I always suggest doing as much research on what you’re legally allowed to keep and go from there. Louisiana is another complicated state as far as box turtle legalities because they’ve got quite a few different species that are native. And they recently made them pretty much all illegal to keep. So just have to keep up to date with what’s coming out from the government.

Wendy:
[8:25] So not to sell or anything, just to keep period.

Cameron:
[8:28] Period, yeah.

Wendy:
[8:29] Wow. Well, that’s kind of a bummer. I mean, I would hope they’d have a grandfather clause for people that already have them, but I know they don’t always do that.

Cameron:
[8:39] Yeah it’s and it seems to be whoever comes into office or whoever’s in charge of making these rules it kind of just changes on a yearly basis you know i think the the idea is is great to be able to monitor and keep an eye on what’s being collected from the wild but sometimes they make it so complicated and so confusing people just kind of fly under the radar and do their own thing because they don’t know what’s up and what’s down. So you just have to be careful.

Wendy:
[9:11] Yeah. And I think for some people, because we looked into box turtles because there’s several species we could keep outside year-round that would do great here, but we shied away from it just to avoid the hassle of being like, well, what if they have babies and our kid goes away to college and we no longer have that extra person to have two?

Cameron:
[9:34] Exactly. yeah it can get a little complicated and confusing and then, Just have to keep in contact with, you know, fish and game and fish and wildlife and try to stay on top of it.

Wendy:
[9:46] Yeah, keep up on all the changes.

Cameron:
[9:48] Yeah. So these— All terrapines are CITES, too, to my understanding. So they have a pretty good amount of protection within the United States, but obviously that doesn’t stop people from trying to get them out. So they are pretty heavily regulated in a lot of states, as they should be.

Wendy:
[10:06] And they’re not ESA listed at all, any of them? right?

Cameron:
[10:11] The only species that is ESA listed is Coahuila.

Wendy:
[10:15] Okay.

Cameron:
[10:16] The aquatic box turtle from Mexico.

Wendy:
[10:18] Okay. And I know they’re IUCN listed as threatened, but that was, I think the last assessment was 2010. And that also includes all of Terrapene Carolina. I couldn’t find anything on the subspecies, so.

Cameron:
[10:36] Yeah, I think they’re pretty much all threatened or near threatened. None of them are really considered endangered, but, you know, that can easily change based off of, you know, things like habitat destruction and the pet trade and then so forth.

Wendy:
[10:50] Yeah, and it looks like their biggest threats are habitat loss fragmentation, which seems like is true for every turtle species, predation, road mortality, and poaching for the pet trade. With it being so controlled in the U.S., are most of those being sent overseas?

Cameron:
[11:10] I would say a lot of them are smuggled overseas into the illegal pet trade. To my knowledge, I think there’s only one person in the U.S. That can legally export them or has done in the past. The the are they’re they’re very protected if you see them outside of the u.s it probably didn’t get there in a legal fashion you know i i personally try to only provide captive born babies to the market uh you know i don’t i don’t ever want to be known as the person selling a bunch of adult box turtles because it just raises question of legality and origin you know i don’t same thing when it comes to acquiring or purchasing adult box turtles you always have to be wary on where they might have come from because people are always out there to make a quick buck and you know especially when it comes to the eastern box turtles they’re absolutely beautiful turtles so they yes they carry a high price on their head which is which is unfortunate you know you really have to be on the up and up animals that are available and and their legality and.

Wendy:
[12:11] Doing your due diligence to make sure that you’re not taking an animal that’s been pulled from the wild for.

Cameron:
[12:17] Sure yeah yeah unfortunately when it comes to i would say turtles and tortoises as a whole the majority of females during the nesting season are are looking for the most optimal place to deposit eggs and fortunately that requires crossing busy streets and roadways so road mortality is a huge killer when it comes to box turtles and i see it every year all over you know Facebook and social media, smashed box turtles are sitting in the road and then you see a couple smashed eggshells right next to them, it’s really disheartening yeah it’s sad.

Caring for Box Turtles

Wendy:
[12:54] So on a happier note, let’s get a little bit into how you keep them. Are you keeping yours inside, outside?

Cameron:
[13:04] So I generally keep pretty much all of my box turtles, within the exception of a few, outside. Right after their three-year mark, once they’ve gotten a little bit of size to them, when I know that a predator, a bird, a coyote, something’s not going to be able to just pick them up and walk away really easily. Once they hit that limit or that size, I typically decide to move them outdoors. This species does appreciate a fair amount of moisture like we discussed before. So I try to provide plenty of different opportunities for them to cool down. I live in Arizona, so it’s 115 in the summertime. And that can be a lot for a turtle that’s not native. So you really have some thought and care has to be taken into the enclosure. So I’ve got misters, I’ve got drip systems that go off multiple times a day in different bodies of water or spraying water just on the substrate itself to really help keep the enclosure cool. Typically a 12 by 16 or so enclosure is what I use for my adults. And something of that size can usually house a small group of animals, you know, four to six animals pretty easily in that style of enclosure.

Cameron:
[14:24] With any turtle and tortoise, the biggest thing that I try to provide are visual barriers. If you’ve got an aggressive male or some males that are combating for a female, that smaller male, that loser of the group is going to need somewhere to go and then kind of cool off and hide from the aggressor. So providing a lot of visual barriers, areas for them to dig into the substrate, go underneath a log, somewhere where they just feel safe. That’s the biggest thing when it comes to turtles. Box turtles specifically, when they’re a baby, everything wants to eat them. As they get older, they’re there to survive, but they do need some special accommodations depending on where you live.

Wendy:
[15:05] Do you heavily plant their enclosures? Because I would assume that would help with humidity too.

Cameron:
[15:11] It does. That can also be a little bit of a challenge here in Arizona is finding the right plants that can actually survive. Being a box turtle, they’re not going to mow down whatever you put in there, so they’re a little easier to put plants in the enclosure, probably a little different than a yellowfoot or a testudo that’s just going to want to eat every plant you put in there. It’s not too terribly difficult finding plants that you can throw in the enclosures, but getting them to survive in the Arizona heat can always be a challenge. So really just trying to create microhabitats, being able to spread or have different layers of shade. You know, if you can give them a tree and then some bushes underneath that tree and some bushes underneath that bush, then you’ve got different layers of shade that really keep the enclosure cool, but also helps keep the animals happy, they feel secure. You know, they’re not exposed to the bright hot sun and whatever’s flying above them.

Wendy:
[16:07] Yeah, I think that’s something that’s super important for, you know, Florida and Arizona, anywhere where the sun is really strong. That’s something I learned when I moved here, that it’s not just shade, it’s deep shade. Like you were saying, that’s from, they’re under a bush, under shade cloth, and then under a tree, so that, you know, they’re not getting blasted.

Cameron:
[16:28] Definitely helps reduce the temperature and as well as just making them feel secure.

Feeding and Nutrition

Wendy:
[16:35] What are you feeding them?

Cameron:
[16:37] That’s the great thing about box turtles is they pretty much eat everything, both omnivores and opportunistics. They use those eyes to find whatever type of movement is within their enclosure, whether it’s a grasshopper that made the wrong move and landing in the enclosure or an earthworm across the pen. They really are good at seeing those prey items and running towards them as fast as they can. But typically I feed a lot of protein matters. You know, like I’ll give them turkey, chicken, beef heart. I’ll cut up salmon. I’ll cut up different types of fish as well as earthworms, mealworms, hornworms, you name it. They’ll eat. But they also will eat greens. They’ll eat lettuces. They’ll eat veggies such as squash, sweet potato, grapes. You know they’ll literally eat everything so it makes them really easy to take care of you know babies probably aren’t gonna go want to devour a piece of lettuce that you put in the enclosure but as they get older as they realize that it actually tastes pretty good they’ll start to develop a habit for eating pretty much everything that you offer them that’s.

Wendy:
[17:54] Pretty nice you can use them as garbage disposals from your food from all your other animals.

Cameron:
[17:58] Exactly yeah i i also think it’s good to give them whole protein or whole animal matter. For example, you can feed them baby quails, you can feed them baby mice, whatever you decide to give them, they’ll eat. Giving them that whole prey, though, I think is important. That way they’re getting every aspect of the animal and not just the clean fillet of the fish or the processed turkey.

Wendy:
[18:25] Do you do any supplements or…

Cameron:
[18:28] Yeah, I’ll use calcium supplements and different vitamin powders and things like that. As I prepare items, I’ll usually use a small tray or I’ll use a small flat rock, and I can use that as the dinner plate. And then as I’m able to prepare meals that way, I can also dust some calcium supplements on there. I’ve given them Cuddlebone, but it’s never really been a favorite of theirs. Because they’re not really running after it readily. Like tortoises would. Some of the other tortoises would, yeah. Try to trick them into eating things that they don’t necessarily want to, but it’s good for them.

Interaction and Behavior

Wendy:
[19:09] So as adults, how kind of active or interactive are they? Are they hiding? Are they coming out to see what you’re doing?

Cameron:
[19:18] It depends on the time of the year. For example, this time of year, it’s kind of cool. They’re not really doing a whole lot. you’ll see one or two out on a warm day but uh they they prefer to be hiding and trying to stay warm this time of year but in the middle of the summer is a completely different story, i can walk out and i’ll have four or five of them sitting there waiting for me and then once they see me they’ll instantly know hey this guy’s gonna give me some food and they’ll start running, and i think that makes some people don’t like that habit but i think it makes a cool little turtle or a pet because it makes you feel wanted. They come running for you. So yeah, they can be very interactive. I will say the majority of the time they are looking for food though. So if you want something that you’re going to, It’s coming to you because you think it wants pets or scratches. That’s not the case. It’s going to think you’re feeding it and want to bite whatever you put in front of its face, including fingers or ankles. Exactly.

Wendy:
[20:20] So are they expensive or hard to find in captivity? Are people breeding them fairly regularly?

Cameron:
[20:27] Yeah, they are. I would say they’re probably one of the most reproduced out of all the box turtles in the U.S. They can be really prolific. This species was a very popular pet in the 70s and 80s. So I think they’re very abundant throughout the U.S. And in people’s backyards and in their native range. They’re a pretty common turtle. You might spend $100 to $300 on a single animal, depending on the size and the sex of it.

Recommendations for Pet Owners

Cameron:
[20:55] So they’re pretty readily affordable and readily available.

Wendy:
[20:58] Okay. Is there anything about them that would make you not recommend this species?

Cameron:
[21:05] Yeah, and that typically applies to babies or hatchlings. As we mentioned earlier, everything wants to eat a baby box turtle. It’s the easiest prey item for just about any predator out there, from birds to raccoons to squirrels to coyotes to you name it. They’re easy to put in your mouth and they’re easy to eat. So as a baby, you probably won’t see them very often. And I think that deters people because they want something they can interact with. They want something that’s going to hang out on the top of the surface and really be able to observe all day. And that’s just not the case for baby box turtles. They want to hide. They want to feel secure. They want to dig into the soil. They want to hide under leaf litter. They’ll come out when you feed them. They’ll come out when you give them water and all that good stuff. But they’re not going to be something, especially as a baby, that you’re going to be able to spend a lot of time really observing and interacting with. Once they get three or four years, they get some courage and they make a lot better pet. But I feel like a lot of people skip that baby era because they’re just not as interesting, not as interactive.

Wendy:
[22:16] Or they see adults and then they get a baby and they’re like, what? This is boring.

Cameron:
[22:21] Like exactly yeah someone someone reached out the other day wanting a baby box turtle for their child and they said do you think this is going to make a good pet and i i honestly told him i’m like, no i don’t think their kid’s going to really enjoy keeping it uh i would suggest maybe a testudo a russian tortoise a hermit tortoise a marginated so it’s going to stay small but, they’ll they’ll actually hang out and be out and on top of the substrate where you can see them and observe them and enjoy them.

Wendy:
[22:50] Yeah. Although, at least in my experience, all of the little, little babies I have are much more cautious just because they are food items. So…

Cameron:
[23:02] Exactly. I don’t think a baby turtle or tortoise makes the best pet for any small child, but a kid with some responsibility and dedication can definitely make it work. Just take some education.

Wendy:
[23:16] Yeah.

Captive Care Insights

Wendy:
[23:17] So is their care similar to any of the other box turtle species that you keep?

Cameron:
[23:23] Yeah, I would say for the most part, the care is almost the same for all of the species. You do have some that are a little bit more aquatic, some that are going to be a little bit more of a bully or a bruiser than others. For example, Gulf Coast box turtles, they can be downright vicious to each other as adults. So certain care needs to be taken into certain species, but I would say it’s pretty similar when it comes to baby box turtles across the board. They all have the majority of the same needs. Some of the more desert-dwelling species like ornate box turtles or the western desert box turtles, they might like it a little bit more, not as aquatic. They like open, barren land, but you really don’t have to worry about that until they get a little bit older in age anyway.

Wendy:
[24:13] Do you know if this species has ever been offered on our surplus list or donated via the CPP?

Cameron:
[24:20] Yeah, absolutely. We’ve actually had both babies, juveniles, and adults offered throughout the program. So they are a prolific species. Sometimes people have extra males because they’re fighting, or some people are just producing a lot of babies that they want to unload. So yeah, we definitely have gotten quite a few of them moved through the program.

Wendy:
[24:40] And for those of you who don’t know what the CPP is, it stands for the Colonian Propagation Program. It is a benefit to all members of the TTPG, and it furthers our group’s mission of establishing assurance colonies for all species. Members can donate and receive animals through the program. So is there anything on captive care that we miss that you think people should know? Yeah.

Cameron:
[25:06] I just want to reiterate that babies definitely require some care. You know, they dehydrate very quickly. You want to make sure you provide an ample supply of water or hydration for them. Once they get three or four years, they’re pretty bulletproof. They’re very easy to take care of. But those first couple years of life, you definitely need to put some thought into the care of the animal. So I just want to reiterate that. But I think as far as that goes, I think we’ve covered it.

Next Episode Preview

Wendy:
[25:39] Okay. And that’s actually a good reminder that our next episode is going to be on three-toe box turtle breeding and hatchling care. So we can go more in depth into that. So that wraps up our special episode as part of Podcast Thon. If you enjoyed it, feel free to visit www.podcastthon.org to discover many other charities through the voices and talents of other amazing podcasters. If you’d like to support TTPG and its mission, you can visit ttpg.org to donate, and we would love to have you as a member. Thank you, Cameron, so much for joining me today. And for our listeners, be sure to catch our next episode on breeding and hatchling care. If people have questions, where’s the best place for them to find you?

Cameron:
[26:27] I’m pretty much all over the place, from the TTPG forum on Facebook to Instagram, Facebook, Cameronland Exotics. Or Cameron at ttpg.org.

Wendy:
[26:38] Okay, perfect. Thank you so much.

Cameron:
[26:41] Thank you for having me.