Forsten’s Focus: The Feisty Tortoise of Sulawesi

Transcript

[0:00] If they’re not compatible, all they will do is fight and fight and fight and fight. Almost to the death.

Introduction to Forsten’s Tortoises

[0:09] I’m Wendy Montroy, and this is Turtle Tea with TTPG. Today, we’re talking to Stephen Sifuentes about Forsten’s tortoises, and that’s Indotetsudo Forsteni. Welcome, Stephen. Thank you so much for joining me today. Let’s start with why Forsten’s. I think you’ve kind of become like the Forstens guy. So how did that happen? Well, okay. Hang on. Let’s go back a little bit. Well, thank you, Wendy. I really appreciate you inviting me to this.

[0:39] So let’s take a step back first. Okay. So I started, so in November of 2016, a gentleman of, he used to, I don’t know if anybody noticed a guy named Bob Thomas. He had a very large collection in a royal in saint louis bispo area and he was downsizing and, i happen to have a mutual friend who knew him and so we went down there we picked up a bunch of tortoises russian tortoises i know a surprise right guys elongated leper tortoises.

[1:20] Elongated forest ends a little bit of everything so then fast forward to 2019 was my first ttpg conference okay and jeremy thompson was talking about focusing on species and he was you know how they were working with the conixx working group and how they were focusing on that particular species. Well, a few months prior to that, I had a female forester. And she wasn’t breeding with any of the males I had. She wasn’t laying any eggs. And I was just kind of getting discouraged. I was like, what are you? If you’re not breeding with the male elongateds, What are you? And so I was, I was kind of trying to figure out what was going on and YouTube was still kind of fresh and, and there really, there really isn’t much about Forreston’s on the internet. It’s very hard to tell them apart. And so when I finally went to TTPG and I was talking to everybody and they told me, nope, that’s a female Forreston. Well, first of all, I kind of didn’t really know what they were. All I knew is they were related to elongated and I love elongated and that’s how I got started.

[2:37] Well, after listening to Jeremy’s talk, I said, you know what? I’m going to focus on forestants. Not that many people are working with them. I’ve got a big female. Let me look into this. Well, the next two years after that, I pretty much got rid of everything. I got rid of my cherry heads, my pancake tortoises, all my Cora. I had Flavo spotted.

Focus on One Species

[3:04] I had a Chaco tortoise. all my leopards i got rid of everything and just focused on my i got rid of all the elongateds and i just kept my forestance yeah i went that’s hard to do like you get attached to everything but i feel like this has happened with other people i’ve talked to too where you just kind of have to laser focus on that one species yeah i and i was just and i was just so moved by that by his talk and i said you know what let me let me take a step forward let me do something else instead of just having three of this three of that five of this i went pretty much completely just okay no more russian tortoises and forestants and that’s all that i keep now that’s that’s i don’t nothing else i mean yes i have my rhino iguanas and i have a star tortoise but i mean my big two groups are those species that’s where your focus is yeah and i love it i mean i mean that’s how i gotta meet ben ben forest who i call the godfather pretty much of forests and tortoises he’s the one who started the aza stud book and i look up to him and kind of like learning from him and learning from you know how he does everything to focusing now and.

[4:32] Kind of taking the mantle and running with the species.

[4:36] Did you have a hard time finding other individuals, especially of breeding age? Yes and no.

[4:44] So prior to, so after the conference of 2019, I met, I was given a mail from William Espenshade. So he loaned me a mail. And this is where I kind of a point that I’m going to kind of get to here. So the male that i had alone that he had alone with me was unfortunately not compatible with the female that i had and that’s the thing with the species is that if they’re not compatible all they will do is fight and fight and fight and fight almost to the death yeah so you have to you have to by me selling all those other animals that i had i had the funds to buy some wild cots i was able to acquire some long-term captives from another person and basically slowly building my group up and so once i found once i found a compatible male for my female then that’s it when it started yeah which is which is the struggle the struggle is finding the compatible.

[5:52] Individuals yes yes otherwise they will just they will just bite and ram and tear they’re just they’re just feisty really really feisty yeah i i’ve heard that reputation and i think there have been other people talking about how they did not expect the level of violence that these tortoises are capable of no they they’re they’re they’re violent i mean if you know ahead of time and you can and so we’ll get into it later in the okay but they basically have cordugated visits they live separate and that’s how it I mean I do have one pair that I could probably keep together, And they’ve shown me that they’re not, they’ll breed, then they’ll hang out, and they’ll just kind of, they won’t really do, they won’t really be as aggressive. But everybody else is pretty much, will fight. Yeah.

[6:49] So let’s take a quick look at their natural history. You know, that’s always important to understand before you keep an animal in captivity. They’re from the Sulawesi Island in Indonesia? Yes. Okay. So do they share a range with the Sulawesi forest turtles too? Correct. Yes, they do. So they actually, they overlap. Yeah. They overlap in habitat. Okay. Don’t they have a reputation for being angry little fellows too? Yes. Maybe it’s something about that island. The water or the atmosphere or, but that, that, those two species are aggressive. So they don’t take up the entire island. They, so I have a picture of a map of the map here, but they, they, they take that upper, that upper arm. Okay. Of Sulawesi. And they’re in kind of tropical forests. Yeah, tropical, like in low line, maybe on the outskirts of the forest. Yeah. Hot and humid most of the year? Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s the great thing about technology now. Like, I can look up the weather app in the Sulawesi island, and it’ll tell me, oh, it’s 80% humidity. It’s raining nonstop. I’m like, okay, so let’s mimic that. Replicate.

[8:15] Yeah. And their IUCN listed as critically endangered. I think the last assessment was 2018.

[8:24] What are their biggest threats? That sounds about right. Biggest threat is they’re on an island. Anything that’s on an island, you’re dealing with deforestation. You’re dealing with the pet trade, you’re dealing with agriculture falls into that deforestation, human encroachment.

[8:46] Anything like i said anything on an island i know i’m repeating myself anything on an island is just, limited you know yeah and by water there’s not much place for them to go it’s just a single event can wipe them out yeah one good hurricane one good hurricane or a tsunami actually it would technically be a tsunami in that region or cyclone i think yeah yeah wipe them out yeah Yeah. And I was reading they’re not protected in Indonesia. No, they’re not. So are they still being legally imported?

[9:21] Okay. So I’m sure that’s a threat too, is being collected.

[9:27] In between November of 2019 and 2024, I purchased, I believe, eight Wild Thoughts during that time period. How was that experience? Did they come in needing lots of treatment and being in bad shape? Well so when the world shut down due to covid in 2000 i was home so i was able to spend literally 24 7 watching these guys soaking them treating them figuring out what they want to eat, but they did come in pretty they the guy that i got them from was not the best person they were they were unfortunately they were rough they were no they were really rough i mean really really really rough yeah i do but dealing with a lot of shell rot they were dehydrated this species loves mushrooms loves fruits i mean papaya is papaya and mango and bananas are like like it’s a staple in their diet like mushrooms like i i’ll do i’ll do portobello mushrooms i’ll do those little i what the little white ones are, the white button ones. Little button mushrooms. I mean, mushrooms… I mean, if I had known that a little bit prior, I probably would have been able to save a few more.

Wild-Caught Challenges

[10:51] But out of the eight… I had three survive. I’m sorry. That’s got to be so rough, especially when you’re working so hard to get them through. I mean, but, but I mean, wild-caughts, I mean, here’s the thing. Sometimes you need wild-caught animals for the bloodlines. Otherwise, you’re going to get inbreeding, and you just need it to kind of booster your population a little bit. I mean, I know that the three that I have that are wild caught, I know they’re unrelated to pretty much everything that’s in the population. That’s here. Yeah. That’s, that’s, yeah, that’s here. And so that’s what helps, especially for me, because going back to the whole compatible thing, once the female and the male actually breed, that is who they, that is, that is, they’re paired for, I pair them for life. Because you know so the next time they’re together you don’t have to worry they’re going to change their mind in between no because that can’t happen but at least i know who the parentage is yeah so i know who the parentage is and i know who i can kind of i could leave them kind of alone but there’s there’s still aggression there’s always going to be aggression in the beginning um but i at least i know okay you guys have bred before or you guys constantly will breed and that I don’t have to, excuse me, I don’t have to worry too much about it.

[12:21] Yeah. So how do you keep them? Do you keep them inside, outside? Both. Okay. So during the winter, they’re in my reptile room and then summertime, they all go on, they’re on a rotation. So the females will go out one day, then the males will go out, Then the females will go out, then the males will go out. But when it goes to them, like, if I pair them up for breeding, then the females will stay inside so I can find the eggs in the tubs.

[12:55] About what size are they at maturity? They’re not huge, right? No. They’re smaller than Redfoot’s. Yeah, they’re in between the Redfoot and like a marginated, you know? Okay. Yeah. But a little bit smaller. So I would say anything over 1,000 grams can possibly start breeding. Oh, wow. I like to probably wait for them to be about close to 15. Okay. 1500 grams maybe to 2000 just to make sure they’re you know that that puts them about six years seven years okay if they’re raising them slow what enclosure size do you recommend for them and i’m assuming you’re you’re keeping your girls individually too not in groups, so i’m keeping everybody individually okay um so for right now just because space wise so my females are actually in a four by four hydroponic reservoir so it’s four foot by four foot and it’s about two foot deep. And then what I do is I just take some screen lids, Zumed or was it Zilla? They have these four foot screen tops and I just clamp them to the sides and make an overhang over them so they can’t climb up and out.

[14:11] And so the females are there. Males are in typically six foot vision cages. Okay. Because I can stack it. I can stack the cages on top of each other. And the males obviously don’t need deep. So I mean, they need right. But they don’t need deep, deep substrate. And then babies are either in tubs or in a, in a smaller vision cages that I have. Okay. I like to have uniformed. Everything has to like, look the same.

[14:39] All my all visions or like i have black tubs that’s pretty much how i like i like it all so it’s not like a giant mishmash of different cage styles my ocd would kick in and be like oh no like okay so i bought a sink and the sink had to be gray because the whole room is gray of gray like division cages yeah i couldn’t do white i couldn’t do black no everything had so it’s like neutral yeah well you’ll we’ll have to share some pictures of that because it sounds awesome yeah i’ll i’ll share some pictures awesome okay what are you using for substrate are you using like bark soil peat moss litter peat moss leaf litter uh reptile bark sphagnin moss mulch anything that can anything that’s like that nice deep foresty substrate that can hold hold the humidity okay do you need plants in with them or do they destroy those i try i try but they just tear them apart i mean yeah ideally i would love to have it where they’re individually they’re in like six foot cages like six foot by six foot where i can hit them just in a space where i can start growing stuff but space wise right now yeah that’s tough yeah you almost need to get it they don’t make anything like that. I mean…

[16:02] Waterland tubs would be great, but they’re kind of narrow. I mean, they’re only like two foot.

[16:09] For the males, okay, yeah, it’s fine. But for the females, I would like something like six foot by four, six foot by six. And you need that substrate depth too. Yeah.

[16:21] So what temperatures are you keeping, Matt? Are you using UV lights? I’m assuming that you’re trying to keep them really humid. Yeah. so basking spot is about 90 there is uh they got a uv they got uv spectrums and then i use a fogger oh and then and then so i just have one fogger and it actually pump it flows into three cages so i just i ran a pvc tubing yeah so one will service three cages that’s really cool yeah so the pvc just lets out in each of the cages yes yeah but i use like the i don’t know if it’s like pvc or if it’s like the those electrical conduits but it’s you know it’s gray yeah right right and it has a nice curve to it where i can actually like it can flow directly down into the into the tubs oh cool yeah so i have a yeah.

[17:22] That probably helps a ton with humidity for myself. So like I’ll turn, I literally have two foggers for six cages. Oh, wow. I didn’t even know you could split it like that. That’s really cool. Yeah. I’ll make sure to send pictures and videos of how everything is. So it’s, it just, it’s easier on my electric bill. It’s easier for me. I mean, I’ll spray everybody by hand because that’s, So then I know everyone’s getting in the moisture, but I’ll run the force, especially when I’m like in the room, I’ll just crank them on and let them let them just go off.

Keeping Them Healthy

[18:00] All right. And they don’t estivate or brumate or anything like that. Okay. I figured being from somewhere that’s just hot all the time. There’s really not a need for that. Yeah. It’s hot and hot and humid. Yeah.

[18:15] So for feeding sounds like they love mushrooms. Will they eat all greens pretty much fruit yeah pretty yeah they won’t they won’t once you get them if you’re if you’re working with wildcard once you get them past and you get them start eating everything they’ll eat everything i mean i do mushrooms papaya all the lettuces collard greens mustard greens all of them all of the prepared diets the missouri and Missouri, Zoo Med, Capitola Farms, and some of the new stuff, too, those flower toppers. Yeah. No worries. They eat. That’s great. It’s always nice to have animals that eat everything.

[19:00] So are they still fairly hard to get in captivity? Are they expensive? What’s it like if you’re looking into getting them? So… Babies are going for about, I mean, if you look at Morph Market, you’re looking anywhere between like $600 to almost $800 for babies. And then adults are going for a little more than that. Are they hard to find? I don’t think there’s a ton of people breeding them, right? There’s actually a few people breeding them. Ben Forrest is one. Mike Lorette is another one. Oh, yeah, down in South Florida. Florida, yeah. Zoom Ed is breeding a lot.

[19:48] So you can find them if you’re looking for them. Yes, yes. But you’re going to pay a little on the heftier side because they are hard. Not super common. Yeah. No, they’re not.

Managing Aggression

[20:01] So is there anything about them that would make you not recommend them? Yes, their aggression. Okay. So if you’re not willing to manage that. If you’re not willing to manage them separately or, you know, I mean, I am trying, I mean, I’ve always kept the babies separate. Okay. But I had two siblings hatch out the exact same time and I threw them together and they’re actually fine. I know Zumbad has kept all their babies together. Okay. So I don’t see an issue with raising babies together. Other it’s definitely when they start turning sexually mature and they’re wanting to breed i think that’s when they start to really get aggro yeah they really start to get yeah they get angry yeah okay is there anything that we missed on captive care that you think people should know no i think i think we got.

[21:02] Most, I mean, we’ll talk about breeding next, but I mean, yeah,

Personality Insights

[21:06] but I think we got, I think we covered mostly everything. What are they like, like personality wise? Are they quiet hiding most of the time? Are they interested in what you’re doing? I know it’s a lot different with wild caught animals, but.

[21:21] Captured bred ones, they’re up at the front of the glass. The babies are up at front. The adults are, oh, you’re in the room. Okay. Let me see what you’re doing. Like, they, I actually have, I have one that if I, if he comes on the floor, he’ll just start chasing me all around the, uh, yeah. Okay. So they’re pretty, pretty into you then. Cause I know some just aren’t. So yeah, no, but I mean, I mean, they have their moments where they want to be left alone, obviously, but I mean, they are definitely curious on what’s going on. And they had that little man syndrome where like, I’ll fight you no matter what. If I’m in the way, they’ll literally ram my foot.

[22:02] So they don’t… They don’t save the violence just for each other it’s for everybody no no no well so i have a i have a mulberry tree where they live where the where the some of the adults live i have a so it’s a mulberry tree underneath so that’s a so one pen outdoor pen has a mulberry tree a persimmon tree a fig tree and a grape tree so it creates that dampled you know canopy like light and And so the family, I tell the family, if you’re going to go pick mulberries, if you’re going to go pick figs, wear shoes in the forest and tortoise pen because they will bite your toes. And I always tell people, if I ever go missing, check the forest because they probably knocked me over and they’re probably eating.

[22:52] Yes, yes.

Conclusion and Next Episode

[22:55] All right. So thank you so much for joining me today. For everyone tuning in, be sure to subscribe or follow so you don’t miss our next episode, which is going to be on Forston’s tortoise breeding and hatchling care. If people have questions for you, where can they find you? Facebook. Okay. Facebook’s the best place. Yeah, or Instagram. All right. Perfect. Facebook’s the best. All right. And we can, you know, leave a link to that in the description so people can find you. I’m on the TTPG page. Okay. So come find me. All right. Thank you so much. You’re welcome.