Breeding the Ferocious Forsten’s Tortoise – “There Will Be Blood”

Transcript

[0:00] Just because you have a male and a female does not mean you’re going to get any success because they have to like each other. They have to be compatible.

Hey, Turtle Tea with TTPG

[0:09] Hey, everybody. I’m Wendy Montroy, and this is Turtle Tea with TTPG. My guest today is Stephen Sifuentes. Thank you so much for joining me. We’re going to talk about breeding the Forstens tortoise. We’ll go over everything you need to know from egg laying to hatchling care. So let’s get into it. Does this species need to be bred more in captivity? Yes, yes. So thank you, Wendy, again. Yes, this species is…

[0:37] In need of other people to help breeding of the species it’s one of the few actually animals that actually has a stud book in the aza and we’re actually working on a private stud book with the turtle room it’s called axe which i will be leading that in the captive breeding side of that.

[1:00] Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah, there’s four or five of us working on that project, so a few more. Are you doing DNA testing at all with your animals? No DNA testing. So we are, well, for me at least, I’m doing pair breedings.

Breeding Compatibility

[1:20] Okay, so you’re tracking parentage and… Correct. yeah so i will put females and males together and pretty much whoever they breed with is who they breed with forever okay so i’m doing so pair breeding so once they become a considered a compatible pair that is who i keep them with okay or that’s who i put them together i should say right they don’t stay together no they don’t stay together no because they will they will bite each other yes they hear a very aggressive violent species no matter where they are i can say a joke but i don’t i don’t i want to keep it pg if anybody wants to know that joke i will gladly tell them but it’s a it’s a pg joke we want to keep it keep it good for the kids right yes yes so i think I think you were saying in the last episode, it’s around six years when they’re around breeding size, age.

[2:30] Yeah. I mean, I have a couple that are about going on four now, and they’re like…

[2:39] Um, actually, let me give you an update. Um, I have four that are, I track everything. I have. I love that. I do too. Yeah. It can never hurt to have data. So. Yeah. So I have my very first two babies. They are pushing almost 800 grams right now. So I. Okay. And they are, they were born in 2023. So they’re going on, what is that, three years, almost four years now? Yeah. Yeah. That’s a pretty good size.

[3:19] And you’re just, you’re not power feeding or you’re just letting them eat. They get fed like every other day. Okay. Wow. I mean, the hatchlings are getting fed every day. But once they get past that year old, that year, year and a half, they go to every other day. Yeah. I’m not looking to raise them up fast. yeah they’ll eat me at a house at home like teenage so how many eggs do they have per clutch how many clutches in a year what does that look like for them or for you at least okay okay so i’m i’m referring i have i’m checking my notes okay so they’ll okay so they’ll lay anywhere between one to four egg okay most of my girls lay one egg and it’s a big egg for them it’s it’s it’s fairly large the radiograph you showed me so that egg actually is i think a little bit on the bigger side and that female is actually the smallest female that i have breeding size because that was crazy that was like a huge egg that’s a huge egg yeah yeah um so in 2000 so last year, one two oh wait one.

[4:36] I had a female lay six eggs. Oh, wow. Every, so she laid on March, then in April. Jeez. Then in May. And then she laid, what is that? And then she laid two months after that. So do they generally start in the spring for you and kind of go through the summer? No. So I’ve gotten eggs pretty much every month.

Egg Laying Insights

[5:04] Wow. So, I have it back since, so 2023 was when I actually started breeding the forestants. So, I have, I got two eggs in December. And then the year after that, I got them, I got them two, five, six, seven. Pretty much, yeah, I get eggs, like one or two eggs every year, every month from somebody. So, there isn’t like a breeding season. It’s just year round for them. No. But they do breed more in the wintertime for me, because where they come from, it’s the opposite. So their winter is our summer, and our summer is our winter, because they’re from the other side of the world. But they don’t have a cold winter or anything. Oh, no. It might be just cooler. Not cooler.

[5:59] I mean, my female, this one particularly, yeah, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Yeah, she laid eight eggs in 2025. And there were some that were like, she laid in September and then she laid in October. Like the same, like within 30 days. Back to back. Yeah, that’s crazy. How are you setting up the eggs in the incubator? What medium do you have them in? What temperature? So I actually have two incubators. Okay. So one incubator is set to 80 degrees for males. Okay. Vermiculite, sphagnut moss, and then the other one is set to 88 for females. And it’s the same. It’s sphagnut moss, vermiculite, and moss on top. Okay. And how long does it take on average? Well, I’m still kind of working that out. Okay. Have you had a big range? Yeah, I have one that incubated… The earliest was 95 days. And the longest one incubated for…

Incubation Techniques

[7:13] 180 days oh holy cow and there wasn’t any different temperature or not that i know of not i mean i mean i had one it was 151 days that one did end up being a twin so maybe that one why that one took longer the 151 day one but i mean i got like 128 days i got 104 112 106 132 yeah they’re they’re kind of all over the place yeah no so let’s get into into a little bit how you keep them from killing each other when it’s breeding time yes so they are kept separate.

[7:57] They i so i’ve done both introduced the male to the female and the female to the male i’ve done both and with the same same success but they are kept separate and they are watched during breeding season you don’t just put them in and be like oh i’ll check on you in a day or two no no no no no, i will so i and i typically try to do all all my pairs together i’ll throw them all together okay you go with this female you go with that female you go with that one and then they all get watched so to see who breeds with who and hopefully and they all get supervised now that you’ve kind of got them paired up is there less violence or are you still having oh no oh no okay they always that’s that’s i want to use can i say foreplay is that part is that okay that’s part that’s just part of how they… Part of their natural process. Yes. Yes, thank you. There’s going to be some bloodshed. There will be some biting and some ramming and they bite and twist a little bit and then they usually kind of chase each other and then, So are the females as aggressive as the bales, or is it… Oh, more.

[9:18] So going back to our first segment, finding the compatible pairs. So when I first was getting into the breeding, I had three or four males, and I would put them with this one female because she just didn’t like the first male that I put her with. Well, she didn’t like anybody. She would beat them all up, bite them, twist, everything. Until I finally found… Big male and there’s probably a joke out there that everyone’s thinking and i’m not going to go there but this big male and finally was able to they were they became compatible and so.

[9:58] Finding compatible pairs is going to be your key okay so i would introduce males to females and females to the males hoping and trying to find who they’re going to breed with just because you have a male and a female does not mean you’re going to get any success. Because they have to like each other. They have to be compatible.

[10:21] And once that’s how I keep them know, okay, this female and this male they’re a pair and then that’s how I know who the parentage of the babies. So, and I try not to do like trios or like groups with them just because I want to know. Because you mentioned the initial male that you had just was 100% not compatible with the female. And I’m assuming no matter how many times you tried, eventually they’re just going to kill each other. You’re not ever going to get babies out of that. Correct. Yeah. No, I mean, they have to be cordial with each other to get breeding. And I think you mentioned when we were talking at the conference that sometimes you will just keep turning the female around if all they’re doing is face fighting. Yeah, sometimes that’s what I’ll just turn around and just, because once the male sees the female running, that’s when the chase is on and that’s when I’m out, when she kind of submits and turns around.

[11:28] Excuse me and and that’s when the mounting begins and that’s when then then he’s then he’s gonna hold her down breed her and then they do this funny like butt wiggle shaking and oh my god they have breeding elongated enforcements is comical they just they are just they’re vocal they do this weird butt shaking of every oh it’s hilarious it’s hilarious yeah there’s blood flying everywhere it’s well no there shouldn’t be any blood at this point but it’s it’s definitely, it’s like i mean you’ve heard russians and in greek before okay but like five times like five times louder yeah it’s hilarious so you know when it’s happening oh yeah i can yeah i can i can once i know once i know once i start hearing the breeding then i can walk away for a little bit but then when I stop hearing that’s when I have to separate them too you have to grab them.

Managing Breeding Aggression

[12:30] So you’re not ever leaving them in for a day or two it’s supervised, they’re all supervised I mean I’ve had a male almost you know rip and he’s almost got the goods ripped off I mean because he was he was learning how to breed, and he was not he was not positioned right he was positioned the wrong way and with this species so aggressive she almost took a bite out of it she’s like I don’t have time for this no no they don’t they don’t play they just they’re yeah.

[13:09] All right. So I know we talked about the incubation time is pretty variable. Are you to the point where you can say you’re kind of consistently getting males at that lower temperature and females at the higher? Okay. So that’s still a little bit of an experiment. Yeah. So the first two that I hatched out was in 2023. And they’re getting to a point where I believe they’re a pair. I mean, one was incubated for males, one was incubated for females, and the anatomy is pretty much spot on. But I’m waiting for, like, this year’s babies. So, actually, take the back. 2025’s babies to kind of… Because that gives me… That would confirm, yeah. One, two…

[14:04] That would give me almost 20 babies. Oh, wow. That’s a pretty good sample size. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the two, okay, yeah. I mean, but I wanted to make sure I’m… You want confirmation? Yeah, I want there to be pretty good numbers before I can say 80 degrees, you’re going to get males. 88, you’re going to get females. And that’s it, yeah. Okay. I will note, though, babies coming out of the egg are feisty.

[14:34] Really yes so the baby i actually just hatched out right now i will post a little video like okay like you i i try to like take off the outer layer of this and leave the membrane yeah yes and they will open their mouth they will hiss they will little their heads will little lunge at you oh they are coming out of the egg their whole life they’re just they’re just spicy they are they are spike yeah they are yeah so do you leave them in the incubator for a couple of days or how how are you setting them up so soon as so the funny thing is i don’t know if it’s just them, or mine yet but like so once they so i look at the egg all the time i’m constantly looking at the egg i’m lifting it i put it on the little egg buddy and determine that there’s still a heartbeat and all that and sometimes you’ll start to see a crack right down right right down right Right down the bottom of the egg or on the side of the egg, just one linear crack. And so that’s when I know, okay, it’s getting close.

[15:39] I don’t know because they are so spicy already that they’re wiggling out and they’re kind of pre-testing out. But then once they poke their little heads out, I take them out of the incubator. I’m sorry, out of the medium. And they go to moist paper towels.

[15:58] And that’s how they hatch out. And they hatch out in the wet paper towels. Okay. I have had flies in the incubator, and I try to avoid that. So by keeping them in the wet paper towels, I can keep an eye on their yolk sac. I can make sure that they’re hydrated so that the membrane is not sticking to their shell. And then when they pop out, their yolk is still kind of big, and they’re just kind of soaking up that water from the moist paper towels, and they’re not going to get an infection. And then once they’re pretty much all absorbed up then i wait in a couple more days and then they’ll go into an enclosure with substrate and okay all that yeah is that a couple of days or a week what are you looking at it varies okay i mean it really did kind of like this last couple like this last round of babies i had to wait because i had no cage space okay i had i had a i had a lot of babies so i had to make some room and and kind of get some tubs set up and everything so and you’re you’re keeping them individually once they’re out of the incubator yeah so i take a two foot i take a two foot vision cage and i split it right down the middle with like like hard plastic like like a plastic sheet like okay like acrylic or something yeah yeah.

[17:23] And I just seal it off so they can’t bend it over. And then so each baby gets one section. Okay. And there’s a heat pad in the back. They get UV lighting, a little bowl, and a little water dish. And a little hide in the back. And that’s how they’re set up. Do they start eating right away? Or are they picky? I usually give them, I’ll wait. I’ll wait.

[17:48] I’m kind of a big fan of, okay, let them absorb their yolk sac. When they’re hungry, they’re hungry.

[17:55] But I usually offer mushrooms as their first meal. That is like, that is. Is that like hands down favorite food, would you say? Yeah. Okay. I mean, yeah, mushroom day is like their absolute favorite day. Okay. Do you know if this species has ever been on our surplus list? I kind of doubt it. No, it has not been. Yeah. No, it has not. Let’s talk about CPP. For anyone who doesn’t know, CPP is the Colonial Propagation Program, and it’s a benefit to all members of the TTPG, furthering the group’s mission of establishing assurance colonies for all species. Members can either donate or receive animals through the program. And I think you recently donated some Forstens babies. I did. I donated two babies this year to the program. I was super excited. I kept telling everybody, I will, I promise, I promise. But what’s been my Achilles heel is, so my goal for the species is each of my pairs, I want to produce a pair. So one boy, one girl from each of my Original breeding pairs So that I can Further that genetic line And so.

[19:19] So that’s why I have the two incubators. And so when I get an egg, one egg goes into the female, one egg goes into the male, one goes into the female, one goes to the male. And so I’ve been slowly kind of building that up. And the last two years I’ve been doing that. Working on building your own kind of group. Yeah.

[19:41] Yeah. So I have a couple individuals that are really prolific. And so i was able to like okay like i have like four babies two boys.

[19:52] Or i say two boys and two girls two.

[19:55] Incubated for boys right yes yes from this particular pair so these so babies like five through ten could be donated to the cpp because i have the older siblings that i’m going to be raising up for my for my group yeah which makes sense because you don’t want too many from the same pair um yeah and and i’ve had a you know we all go through our highs and lows i’ve had a couple babies where i have i’ve had them for a year and then they drown or they just or i’ve had a couple where they failure to thrive yeah and then i have okay so i’m like okay so let’s just say k-a-o-8 was was the was one of the babies that i was holding back but all of a sudden it died so now i have to wait until next to you to get back in the incubator and do it so k-a-o-8 for anybody is how i use my number system okay so dad is k i so it’s all alphabetical mom is a and o8 is the eighth baby that they’ve produced okay and then there’s they have a hatch date and then on my label it’ll have all that information and then i’ll have either the male or the female.

[21:24] Sex symbol. So I know who, what incubator… Was incubated, yeah.

[21:31] And, you know, all that information, if you’re starting to work on a stud book, you’re going to need all of that. Yeah, which I’m super excited to be working with. I mean, I’ve got notes and everything that I track it on paper, I track it on the computer, I track it on their individual label. I mean, so I have… I know where everybody is at all times. And because the goal is to have, like I said, is to have a pair from each of the stock. So then when they age out or they die, I know I have. You’re carrying on. I can carry their line around. Yeah. And that way, if you have multiples, then when it comes time to start pairing up, you never have to pair up anyone that’s related. Or which is awesome no i mean this last year i had i had a pair up one male with two females and i was not really not really excited about that but the baby that i did get from that original pairing i actually was able to send it off so now i just have i just have that that particular one individual yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i was shorthanded a couple males i’ll shorthand some females. I mean, right now I’m working with… Oh my goodness, let me see. Let me see.

[23:00] Adult-wise, I have 13 adults. And babies right now…

[23:12] 14 adults. I mean, sorry, 14 babies. Okay. So you got 14 coming up. Well, take half that. Okay. So I would say seven. Okay. Eight. Oh, yeah, seven. Because they’re, some of them are multiples. Okay. Or when I say multiple, they’re siblings. Right. So I’m only going to keep the first two babies. Ideally. From each pairing. Yeah. Okay. I mean, there’s a couple, So there’s a couple of genetics that I still kind of want to get from some other keepers that I know of that end up their stuff is unrelated to mine. And I’m just kind of waiting for them to like, want to trade?

Starting with Breeding

[23:58] So if someone wants to start breeding the species, where do they start? Do you try to get unrelated babies? Are you looking for adults? Would you recommend the wild caught route? What do you think?

[24:14] If we’re going to go, if we’re going to talk about wildcaughts, we, we, we, we should just, let’s just talk about it. Spend the time do some homework before you get wild cots and this is i’m talking about wild cots in general of anything yeah anything if you’re the first or the second first or third person getting these from the wild you have a much higher chance of actually keeping these things alive and i’m talking about anything when you’re the fifth or the sixth person and they’ve just been jumping around from this person to that person to this person their immune system is going to be shot they’re going to be dehydrated they’re not they’re not they’re not going to be the best they’re going to be very difficult to get started i was lucky enough to be a couple of them i was the first or second person to get them okay so obviously they get collected from the wild then they get sent to a dealer and then that dealer sends them off wherever they go so i was able to be you know in that first three four kind of bracket but i still lost a few yeah i was gonna say even that is there’s no guarantee no i think some people are like oh wild caught are cheaper they’re already adults they’re gonna start breeding for me right away and that is not the case.

[25:36] It’s a it’s a 50 50 if you can get them hydrated and you can get them eating and de-stress then yes, and this is where I want to kind of like voice my opinion and kind of tell people ask questions, if someone’s housing them a certain way where hey the food bowl’s on the left the water’s on the right the basking’s in the middle or whatever try to set it up that way so when the animal goes into your care there’s less stress there is somewhat some familiarity going on with the animal and the animal is going to do much better I always even if it is the same bowl.

[26:22] Do you use terracotta? Do you use plastic? Do you use paper towels? Or, I mean, just some of those things help the animals with a familiarity. And so they settle much faster. Tortoises do not like change at all. And I know some people with some species, if you get adults, they will send the substrate with you. Like, down to that detail. Because they do not like change. And that’s why I was asked Okay, what are you What are you using, What are you substrate What’s your cages, what’s your bowls I mean, it just I mean, yes, it’s kind of annoying I’m like, okay, why are you asking me this But I’m trying to look out for the animal I’m trying to get this animal to, Once the animal’s in your care Within a year, okay, then you can start changing things So that, you know The way it works for you So, like this year, so actually, sorry, I said that last year, I acquired from the auction a Forreston from the T2B auction.

[27:31] I put it into one of my tubs, didn’t want to eat. And we’re talking about a captive bred baby. Didn’t want to eat, was stressing out, running around, just not happy. Well, I moved it. I called them up and said, hey, what cages are you guys having them in? Oh, we have them in vision cages. We have them in stackable cages where there’s, you can only see one way in, one way out. Okay. We use plastic, we use the flower pots, the plastic flower pots. I said, okay, cool. Cut it in half. Boom. Within three days, the animal was eating, settling. And so now I’m like, hey, that’s why it’s always important to ask the questions. How are they set up? Yeah. Like, are they feeding on paper plates? Are they feeding on plastic trays, on slate? because it all makes a difference. It really does.

Captive vs. Wild Caught

[28:20] So if someone’s not hasn’t done wild caught before, would you recommend starting with captive bred just for? If you’re just getting into this captive bred always. Okay. But I mean, if you’re and I know some people are going to be mad at me for this, but if you’re, you know, a dedicated keeper and you know what you’re doing. Okay. Yeah. Wild caught. I mean, but I did wild cots because I wanted the genetic diversity. Yep. And that’s what some people will do. If you’re just getting started, capture bed babies all the way. Okay. And just to reiterate, I mean, they are 100% legal, wild cots still. So. There is a huge demand in the native range. Really? This last year, I’ve been messaged from people in the Philippines, people in Sulawesi.

[29:22] I had a gentleman from India message me on how to keep them. That’s really interesting. They love them because they are a gold tortoise. They are the black and yellow. They’re beautiful. Yeah. I will definitely include some photos because they’re absolutely gorgeous. Like, the babies are gorgeous. The adults are pretty, like… Okay. Well, the baby, the first baby that I sent you, the really pretty orange one, that one’s, that one’s, that one’s, there’s something pretty about that one. That one’s, they shoot, they shoot, that pair produces orange babies, but they are typically a gold, you know, that’s yellow with a bit of browns and blacks. And yeah, no, I just think they’re just gorgeous. Yeah, they are. All right. So I would assume that because they’re so uncommon, that there’s a pretty good demand for babies of the species where if you’re producing them, you’re not going to have any trouble finding people that want them. Is that correct?

Demand for Forstens Tortoises

[30:22] No. Oh, no? No. Are they just not well known or what’s going on? It’s it’s it’s part of the not well known and then when i tell people this species is aggressive you can’t keep it together you know that’s that’s kind of the turnoff for some for some people so people want to be able to have a group of five all living together and i mean you might be able to if you kept them as all individually i mean sorry if you kept them as babies and raised them up all females but maybe maybe i mean i mean i i’ve seen if you go on to youtube there was an interview with a particular youtuber and he was visiting zoomed and they’ve got their all they’ve got a couple babies all together but then like you the next like scene over you just see the pair so there’s there’s compatible pairs but you have to find that compatible pair Right.

[31:27] Yeah, and honestly, even with tortoises that are so-called, you know, get along, love each other, live in groups, even they fight. Like, they’re not super bloody fighting, but… I had a psychologically disturbed male pancake tortoise, and that is the most, to me, that is the most social tortoise out of everything. Besides maybe Aldabras, but pancakes, you know, they live in groups. But I think he wasn’t kept properly. And when I did put him in with a group, he would just fight everybody. Like all the time. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you’re never guaranteed like everybody getting along, no matter what the species. But this is a species that really should be kept singly unless you’re breeding them. Yeah. I mean, if you’re breeding them singly. Yeah. I mean, I have like I have two babies right now. Together they were hatched at the exact same time they were put in the they are put in the pen the exact same time they’re siblings or should they hopefully crush your fingers they should be sisters so they’ve been getting along knock on wood but but you’re now i’m sure you’re watching them very closely too oh yeah no they’re actually after this i’m gonna go do my so i check so i check my animals like.

[32:53] Like every four hours like wake up before i wake up before i go to work when i get home from work and then before i then before i go to bed yeah i’m constantly checking the animals yeah and that’s just everybody that’s just whether it’s breeding season or not i’m constantly checking yeah well you kind of have to do rounds i’ve got a couple that just like to get flipped over or climb on stuff and fall. So you don’t want them sitting all day. So every couple of hours is definitely, that’s a good practice. Yeah.

[33:30] So kind of, I know we missed one part regarding the breeding process, will fight they will they have to they have to ram each other they have to bite they have to nip that is all part of the breeding so you need to let a certain amount of that go on like you’re not breaking them up and no i’m not breaking them after the first bites or okay you know i’m i’m letting them i’m letting them kind of fight it out but you know but there’s a point where it’s like okay there’s no breeding there’s no repositioning the male’s not mounting or if the male is attempting to mount even if he’s not mounting the right way or on the side or the front okay then i’ll i’ll give him a hand a little bit because like i said he will possibly get it removed if he doesn’t so but that just takes some time yeah but once they once once that part is, like after they kind of get that out of their system then they go. But then there’s others that just all they want to do is fight. Yeah.

Final Advice on Breeding

[34:40] Alright. Well is there any other advice you’d give to someone who’s looking into keeping or breeding the species?

[34:49] If you’re going to do it do it. I mean they’re fun. They’ve got like a lot of spunk. But we definitely need a couple more keepers out there that are willing to.

[35:04] Take the challenge it’s not so much the it’s not so much the eggs and the incubation it’s just getting them to breathe is is the difficult part and that’s actually one thing i wanted to ask you, when like when you had that initial pair that was just not compatible, where do you draw that line where you’re like this is just not happening.

[35:29] You kind of just you just kind of can just see it okay i don’t i don’t i don’t know how to like i can’t like i can’t like give you like oh after two months you know it’s it’s you kind of see it where there’s there’s is where it’s just too much just kind of over the top yeah so i mean, when I start seeing blood like and I mean, like I’m talking about like nose bleed because they’ll nip they get this you know that little soft pill right here in between the nose when they get that part, and you know or when they bite and they twist the bite from the arm and then the female or the male like takes off running that’s when you know it’s like hey that’s enough, like if she like stops and turns around and lets the male mount okay that’s fine then you know that’s breeding but if she like pulls away yeah oh then you know that’s not that’s okay it’s gonna work but i’ve tried we’re doing the female to male and then i’ve tried introducing the male to the female cage and seeing if that was any difference but it’s not much okay yeah it’s just about identifying those kind of compatible pairs and letting them do their little violent foreplay.

[36:55] Yes. Yes. Yes, they are.

[37:00] All right. Well, thank you, Stephen, so much for joining me today. For everyone tuning in, we’d love it if you’d leave us a review or a comment. Let us know how we’re doing. If people have questions about breeding forcens, tortoises, or starting a breeding group, where can they find you? Facebook. Okay. Facebook, and then, you know, guys can message me and then we’ll chat away. Okay. Perfect. Thank you so much. You’re welcome. Thank you, Wendy.