Bog Turtles: Tiny Titans of the American Wetlands

Transcript

Wendy:
[0:22] Alright, today we are talking to Raul Gonzalez about bog turtles, or Glyptemys muhlenbergii.

Welcome to the World of Bog Turtles

Wendy:
[0:30] Welcome, and thank you so much for joining me today. I think I mangled it, even though I asked.

Raul:
[0:34] No, you got it right. Thank you for having me.

Wendy:
[0:37] Can you tell me how you got started with the species?

Raul:
[0:41] Just by chance. So years ago, we’re talking about 10 plus years ago, a gentleman from Florida moved to Texas. And we, by chance, he moved near my hometown. He still did reptiles back then. And he moved all his animals, all his whole reptile collection down to South Texas. And I worked for him for a while. And then we became partners for a minute, importing and exporting reptiles. And just by chance, he had some animals that he got back on loan. He was kind of getting out of the business. He transferred from reptiles to birds or switched over, not transferred, but he switched over to birds and keeping parrots. And he just gave me an opportunity to work with them. At the time, it wasn’t a turtle in my radar. It wasn’t a turtle I thought of. But I ran with it. Once I got the opportunity to have a few, I jumped on them and kept them. And it’s been a long journey. There’s been a lot of ups and downs. But it just started by chance with somebody, bumping into somebody and meeting somebody that had them that I would never have thought they were around. I didn’t even think that people kept them. And sure enough, they are.

Wendy:
[1:47] Yeah, you really don’t hear that much about them, I think, because they’re not very common.

Raul:
[1:53] Yeah, not very common. And there’s a lot of eyes on them. That’s a big, it’s a U.S. animal. They’re very, or they’re critically endangered. I mean, there’s a lot going on with them. So definitely, there’s a lot of eyes by the federal government. I’m sure they keep tabs on who has them, who doesn’t, or who’s working with them and what they’re doing with them. And it’s… It’d be a little bit stressful, I guess, thinking about that.

Wendy:
[2:22] Yeah, I could see a lot of people just not wanting to deal with that headache.

Raul:
[2:27] Yeah, it could be a nightmare situation or just having something questionable and then not being able to respond or provide the answers or whatever it is they come up with. It’s, you know, I could see people just not wanting to have that kind of a reach.

Natural History of Bog Turtles

Wendy:
[2:42] Yeah. So, well, let’s take a quick look at their natural history. I think part of the problem is that they are so endangered in the fact that they’re a native species.

Raul:
[2:55] Yeah. And then I think from my understanding, if I recall, they used to be a lot more common. Now everything’s been fragmented. There’s even every state where they naturally occur, they’re protected. I think Maryland was the last state to protect them back in 98, 99, I think. But other states had them already protected way before. And then everything’s been, you know, from what I read, they’re just small pockets. Populations are, you know, very small or, you know, no longer connect to other areas or so forth.

Wendy:
[3:31] Yeah, I think there’s a northern population and then a southern population, and they’re completely separate. They don’t join at all. And their size has got to be an issue as well. The fact that they’re like the smallest North American species, I’m sure that makes them really attractive to people.

Raul:
[3:51] They do. I believe so, right? So I do see that people can get enamored with something small and with such a personality. They have a big wood turtle personality in a small package, but they’re not the smallest. I mean, they are small. I got some fairly large animals that are about almost the same size as a spotted turtle. Okay. But they are small compared to other species. I definitely would say the smallest turtles go to maybe musk turtles or some mud turtles, maybe a three-stripe or stinkpots. But they’re definitely small. And yeah, there’s an attraction to them, one, because of the personality, too. I’m sure the rarity or the ooh-ah factor is what makes them really sought after. But I don’t believe poaching is the biggest problem. Because obviously, I think if people poach them, we know people or we know somebody who have them. I mean, I think words get around, right? That somebody has them that we didn’t think had them or so forth. I think it’s more…

Wendy:
[4:52] They’re rare enough and it’s such a small community.

Raul:
[4:55] Yeah.

Wendy:
[4:56] Yeah.

Raul:
[4:56] Yeah. The guy that keeps them is a turtle guy. It’s not going to be some dude that just finds it. It’s going to be a turtle keeper.

Wendy:
[5:00] Just a rando.

Threats to Their Survival

Raul:
[5:02] Yeah. So I think the biggest threat is urbanization or, you know, destroying natural habitats to build a shopping center, put a parking lot. I think that’s the biggest threat. But yes, I’m sure poaching and pet trade type of scenarios do hurt, you know, hurt the population, do affect them. But I definitely think, you know, that taking up the land, buying up all the bogs and wetlands is definitely a lot more harmful than one or two turtles being snatched or picked up.

Wendy:
[5:33] Yeah, and road mortality and… The habitat loss, I was reading that invasive plants are a big problem, too, because they’re filling up the wetlands and kind of pushing them out.

Raul:
[5:45] Yeah, I read this is some time ago where I guess they use cattle, right, or grazing animals to eat the grass to give them, I guess, they either eat some invasive plant or they eat the grass to allow for the turtles to be able to still have wetlands or bask. I don’t know. It’s been a while, but I’m sure they did something like that where they would allow, or they’re found in cow pasture, something like that, where the cows, you know, eat the grass and they live in the same kind of habitat or they use the same habitat. But it’s, yeah, it’s definitely, I didn’t know about the plants, but I could imagine, yeah, if there’s something that’s eating up or taking up all the water and overtaking the natural plants, it’s going to definitely affect them. Yeah.

Wendy:
[6:27] And I didn’t even think about that. I came across that while doing research and I was like, oh, man. That came up recently with the Galapagos tortoises as well. I was talking to Jason and Tara and they said there’s like a briar on the islands that’s taking over and they can’t walk through it. So like you don’t even think about plants can actually affect a population as well. It’s crazy.

Raul:
[6:51] Yeah. All the little things add up. Yeah.

Wendy:
[6:55] So what’s the legality of keeping them? Are there only certain states where you can keep them? Or I know they’re ESA listed. So what kind of restrictions are we looking at?

Raul:
[7:07] So from what I’m aware of, ESA animals cannot cross state lines. And then these animals, obviously, all the states that they naturally occur in, they’re protected. And now, maybe some rescues maybe some some people from those states have permits right but um obviously, they haven’t gotten the animals or the dnr doesn’t provide them with any animals i’m assuming if you give one person one you got to give all the other people that have the permit or if i asked for them yeah you know that kind of stuff but um so if you live in a state where somebody has them and they’re able to produce them you can only buy in state now i could give them to to people out of state obviously no monetary uh money exchange no value no commercialization and you know maybe one day when there’s enough of them that i produce or that we all get to maybe do a group a mulgum burghai group you know where we can try to get them out but that’s far and long in between right that’s just it’s not going to be easy they don’t, Go ahead. Sorry.

Wendy:
[8:06] I would guess that there is enough of a demand that you would have enough people in state that would just snap those up if they were available.

Raul:
[8:17] Yeah, there is always a list or always somebody reaching out, asking for them. But they don’t produce a lot. They’re not like spotted turtles where they lay four clutches of three or four eggs. If anything, they lay two clutches. Max is four eggs for me. Minimum is one. right but and it always seems that the second clutch is never as good as the first but that’s maybe me maybe i’m doing something wrong but yeah maybe they’re out of resources at that point, yeah i mean it’s a small turtle if you you see my if you go through my facebook album there’s a photo where it’s a female an x-ray of a female with four eggs and you see the size of the eggs compared to the shell and it’s like man where does she cram all the food that she eats yeah, so and i think i’ve i’ve this year i had fatigue or maybe every year i bred them every year i got eggs this year my female that lays four eggs only laid two she only clutched once she didn’t double clutch you know so you know maybe i gotta give them a break i let them kind of you know take a year off and just recoup and and get her back up to size or weight or whatever it is that she needs It’s just, you know, so there could be, you know, something related to that, but there’s not enough. The demand is crazy. Every time I post something, there’s like emails, right? And messages.

Wendy:
[9:37] Oh, I’m sure. Yeah.

Raul:
[9:40] And, you know, there’s only like maybe four people that I know that keep them. I think I’m just the more outspoken one with them. There’s another person that does post about them here and there, but the other two people that I know that have them don’t even, you know, talk about it. They don’t post anything. And I don’t know if they do produce or they’re just so, you know… So many people, they have a list that they just cannot keep up with demand and it’s just, you know, always sold out and go for it. But in-state only.

Legalities of Keeping Bog Turtles

Raul:
[10:07] And if someone gifts it to you, well, then you can get it gifted, but can’t cross the lines.

Wendy:
[10:13] Well, hopefully this doesn’t like light you up with requests.

Raul:
[10:18] No, hopefully not. The people that want them, I always, this is my thing. If you really want something and you’re really serious about it, you’d know the people to go to or look up or find to that has them or works with them versus asking online openly or real, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, I don’t like the, the, I get it that there’s a stigma that they’re like, wow, rare and cool factor. But, you know, it at the end of the day, it’s a wood turtle, a small wood turtle. I mean, you could get the same same experience with a wood turtle or a spotted turtle. And, you know, there’s always a fear of people stealing them or breaking into your house. And, you know, I’ve had I haven’t had a scenario yet. But, you know, it just why do you want to put yourself through that? Especially people that have, like, you know, paranoia or have other rare things than just that turtle. Like, there’s no need to go through all that. I mean, unless you’re really serious and you really, really must have it or must want to work with it, then I get it. But honestly, you can get the same experience with any of the turtles.

Insights on Captive Care

Raul:
[11:21] Slingorize, Japonica, box turtles. I mean, they all do the same. They’re all personable.

Wendy:
[11:28] All right. Well, let’s get a little bit into captive care. Do you consider them like a beginner-friendly species? Are they hard to keep?

Raul:
[11:37] I do think they’re easy to keep. Um, but I, you know, I live in Florida, the weather outside is very conducive to keeping everybody outside. So I do keep them outdoors. We keep them in small waterland tubs, mostly individually. Sometimes we pair them up, especially during the fall or spring when we’re trying to get some breeding going on. But they’re pretty straightforward. I mean, I don’t give them deep water. I see some zoos do some exhibits where it’s like 8, 10 inches of water. And I’m sure they can climb into it or they can climb and get air and breathe and all that and swim up. But I don’t like to risk anything with these turtles. So they have about three and a half to four inches of water at the deepest. And there’s plenty of structures in there for them to climb out. I do have the water a little bit lower when they’re paired because the males may or can drown.

Wendy:
[12:28] Can get a little, yeah.

Raul:
[12:29] Yeah. I keep them in the shade. I don’t keep them outside in the straight sun because obviously it gets extremely hot out here and the black tubs do not help.

Wendy:
[12:38] Especially with shallow water like that, yeah.

Raul:
[12:40] Yeah. So they’re kept in dapple lighting. And then where they’re set up, the sun in the morning comes out for about an hour or two and hits them. And if you go outside around 10 a.m., they’re outside basking for a minute. And then the rest of the day, they’re hunkered down or hiding. But I do think they’re straightforward, easy to keep. I do think you might come across some fungal or not fungal, skin issues if the water doesn’t have tannins, right? Or acidic, you know, like leaves or so forth. Leaves and, yeah. Yep. I had an issue a couple of years back where I brought these animals in temporarily. I had a scare. I had an animal went missing, not a turtle, a lizard. And I thought there was a theft in our yard. So we brought in all the animals. And throughout keeping them temporarily and just, you know, simple, basic water, you know, a little shoebox with water for a few days, clean water, they started getting like a lesion or a fungal on their skin. Yeah. It would go away if you treated it with antifungal or, in the case that I found out, if you put them back in their tubs, whatever that was in the water, which is oak leaves because, you know, the oak trees fall, it went away. So I started to find out that if you keep them in super clean water, they tend to have some skin issues. But if you keep them in the tannin-rich waters, no issues. They clear up and they’re fine.

Wendy:
[14:02] Oh, that’s interesting.

Raul:
[14:03] Yeah, that may be my animals or maybe because they’ve been in this setup long term versus maybe a captive born animal that’s been raised in super clean or, you know, tap water and so forth might not have the same issues. But that’s been my experience.

Wendy:
[14:18] So you don’t even keep females together? Everyone is separate?

Raul:
[14:22] You can. I’ve kept them before together just because, you know, it’s kind of cool to see them interact with each other. But honestly, they see each other. One’s a bully. One will be submissive. So we keep them separate. They eat well on their own. Males are really aggressive with females and they’re even more aggressive with males, right? They’ll tackle their males. I have kept them with spotted turtles.

Diet and Feeding Practices

Raul:
[14:47] And you know there was a time where I kept a mail with a bunch of spotted turtles thinking maybe he’d try to breed with the spotted turtles because there’s been reports of hybrids, no there’s no interest in the spotted turtles I do believe and I think I read this somewhere they can recognize each other and other species right like I guess a bog turtle can recognize a bog turtle with either the coloration of their ear the patch, or something but when you put them with a female spotted turtle they have No real interest. You know, it’s just another animal in their place or with them. And, you know, they don’t interact with them much.

Wendy:
[15:24] Okay.

Raul:
[15:24] But out of safety, it’s better to keep them individually. Sorry.

Wendy:
[15:28] No, no, go ahead.

Raul:
[15:29] I was going to say, it’s better just to keep them single.

Wendy:
[15:32] Yeah, it sounds like it.

Raul:
[15:34] Yeah.

Wendy:
[15:35] A lot of times keeping them in groups is because it’s easier for us, not necessarily because the animals would prefer it.

Raul:
[15:42] Yeah, correct. Correct.

Wendy:
[15:45] So obviously you don’t need UV lighting because you’ve got sun. If you were keeping them inside, would you recommend using UV?

Raul:
[15:53] Oh, yeah. No, for sure. I’d give them everything. I’d give them lights. Yeah. I do keep them simple, the hatchlings, right? So it’s like either an elevated tub, slightly inclined, with an incline so that there’s dry in the water side and nothing deep. I’ve lost hatchlings to not being able to right themselves in a tub because of water. So I’ve learned from that. I’ve lost a hatchling to, you know, at one time I wanted to be natural and add some duckweed and give them some greenery and the duckweed. You know, the water tension that I guess it holds, the turtle gets underneath when they’re hatchlings, they can’t break through the duckweed and they drown under the duckweed. So it’s been, but now it’s just straight water.

Wendy:
[16:42] Now it’s just plain.

Raul:
[16:43] Yeah, super. And it looks hard. I mean, I get it. It doesn’t look very nice or, what’s the word, like interactive for them or in it.

Wendy:
[16:53] Yeah. But they don’t die. Yeah, correct.

Raul:
[16:56] It’s very sterile, very straightforward. And once they recognize you for food and once they know you’re the guy that brings the yummies, man, it’s to see a turtle the size, maybe a little bit bigger than a dime, come up to you stretched out, head, you know. Edging to see what you have. It’s pretty cool. And that personality just goes with the turtles as it gets older.

Wendy:
[17:19] So what do you feed them?

Raul:
[17:20] When they’re hatchlings, you start with people feeding blackworms. I’ve tried blackworms. They’re hard to come by, but I’ll do pinhead crickets. You can do fruit flies. They take pellets pretty easily. For whatever reason, they like reptoman, even though I hear reptoman’s not the best or it’s not a good pelleted food. They do take it. And I’ll chop up or mince up earthworms as much as I can. And I’ll use forceps and I’ll wiggle it. And sometimes I just dig outside in the pens and I’ll find small earthworms, right? Tiny nightcrawlers and chop them up for them.

Wendy:
[17:57] Do they do bloodworms at all or tube effects worms?

Raul:
[18:01] They do. Okay. I just haven’t tried or they won’t go after the dried ones. You have to either have the frozen.

Wendy:
[18:09] The frozen, yeah.

Raul:
[18:11] Yeah, yeah. The cubes don’t call our attention much.

Wendy:
[18:15] Okay. Do you do any sort of supplementation? Or just varied diet?

Raul:
[18:22] Varied diet. So they take fruit, eat fruit very easily.

Wendy:
[18:25] Oh, really?

Raul:
[18:27] Yeah, they’ll eat strawberries, melon, watermelon, grapes. I mean, they’re not picky. They’ll eat everything. Shrimp, fish, the adults. Babies, of course, you know, I’ll smash a blueberry or, you know, some kind of fruit and make it small enough for them to try to nibble that. And they will, but they’re not as enthusiastic as they are with live foods or carnivorous, you know, meats.

Wendy:
[18:54] Okay. So they would prefer like… Insects.

Raul:
[19:00] I think as babies, yeah. It draws their attention, right? Seeing something move, mosquito larva, tadpoles, it definitely draws their attention. But once they get older, man, anything goes. The adults, I’ll feed them quail, baby mice. And of course, they’re not eating this hole. They’re tearing it apart.

Wendy:
[19:17] Right, because they’re pretty little.

Raul:
[19:19] Yeah, but they can. They will. And they’ll try to overpower any little live animal. I’ve seen them. Somehow they got in a knoll one time, a brown knoll that was in there.

Wendy:
[19:29] Those are quick, too.

Raul:
[19:30] Yeah. So I’m sure that anole either fell in the water and couldn’t somehow get grip to get out. And they snatched it. And I’ve seen them, unfortunately, tear up a toad, a little wood toad that somehow, you know, I guess was in the plants. Yeah, they’re savage. They’re pretty savage for little turtles.

Wendy:
[19:48] So are they shy or are they pretty interactive?

Raul:
[19:53] Indoors? If you keep them indoors for whatever reason, I guess they’re very interactive. They see you, they stretch out their necks, they look at you, they come up to you, they beg for food.

Interactivity and Behavior

Raul:
[20:03] Once you put them outside, they kind of still do that, but they’re more shy. They get scared more easily the the sun natural lighting for whatever you know the natural uv from the sun changes them or makes animals you know kind of more what’s the word i guess they’re more, they’re more cautious yeah yeah so i wondered.

Wendy:
[20:25] About that too because i have guys that come in for the winter and go out for the summer and it’s the exact same thing like they’ll sit on their basking platform inside and just watch me and they don’t care.

Raul:
[20:37] If they’re.

Wendy:
[20:38] Outside the minute they see me they’re in the water.

Raul:
[20:40] They go in yeah yeah it’s the same thing though i’ll bring them in like around this time i start getting them prepped for uh vermation or hibernation in florida obviously doesn’t get that cold so i wait for one of the big you know when we have a real hard coat snap and i’ll bring them in and i prepping them basically i’m waiting for it to get cold enough so that when I bring them in, they go in a box with sphagnum moss, leaves, and water, enough water to cover their shells, and they go in a refrigerator in their salad drawer, and they’ll stay there for two to three months. Okay. Right? And that’s…

Wendy:
[21:15] So like a normal fridge…

Raul:
[21:17] Yeah, 30, 35. Yep.

Wendy:
[21:20] Yep. Something like that.

Raul:
[21:22] I have a refrigerator that one time, I guess the setting was off and it iced over. Now it didn’t ice over completely, but when I opened the, you know, the container to check on them, there was ice above and I did panic.

Wendy:
[21:36] Did you freak out?

Raul:
[21:38] Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was, it was scary because at that time I set them up all in a group, in a group tub, just because I didn’t have, I couldn’t find a tub that I liked enough that would fit the salad drawer. Anyhow, luckily, the turtles were fine. They moved, they were still, you know, somewhat alert.

Wendy:
[21:57] I’m sure that was a little bit of a heart attack moment.

Raul:
[22:00] Yeah. So, of course, these are experiences I have that I don’t brag about. Of course, nobody wants to talk about the scares and the faults that we have, but that was one where I I did get scared. I mean, I thought I killed my animals. Luckily, it was just iced over. The turtle perked up. I mean, once we brought them out of the refrigerator and set them outside for their spring, wake up, turtle was perfect. No problem. So I think that’s probably the year that I had the best fertility rate. Yeah. Not that I want to do it again, but it was kind of scary.

Wendy:
[22:34] So if you don’t do that, if you don’t pull them and put them in the fridge, are they probably not going to lay eggs for you? Because, you know, it doesn’t get a prolonged cold here.

Raul:
[22:44] Correct. So I do think that they still breed. Obviously, there’s a, I posted a video the other day where I was, you know, cleaning them and moving them around and pairing them up. And obviously the males are, they feel the seasonal changes and are kind of, in their little breeding mode before winter or in winter, I guess. But I think they could still produce. I just don’t think the fertility rate or the hatch rate is as good. Yeah. So I cool them just because they’re obviously from up north. I mean, there’s some in Georgia, which is fairly close to Florida, but I don’t know. I’m sure Georgia gets way colder than we do during winter.

Wendy:
[23:22] Yeah, there’s parts of Georgia that still get snow, like up by Atlanta occasionally.

Raul:
[23:26] So

Wendy:
[23:27] Yeah and we don’t.

Raul:
[23:28] Yeah so i do want them to feel that and i feel like it does help them, and i don’t know i i guess it’s for the males right i i either i think the consensus is you know the the cold temps or bringing them down helps them with sperm production um and i do believe it helps like i’ve done it every year since put them in the refrigerator for two to three months and it’s it’s helped i mean i think it’s it’s helped this like i said this past year something’s different. I don’t know. Maybe there’s a fatigue, They’ll still go down, give them their break, let them go through the process. And then when spring, the first month where it’s in the 70s during the day, they’ll go back out and start the process all over again.

Breeding and Hibernation Practices

Wendy:
[24:10] So do you do like a specific amount of time or do you just kind of wait for it to get real cold? And then once it warms up, I mean, because, you know, our weather here can be like 80s in December.

Raul:
[24:21] And I try to shoot for the first. So I messed up this this year. So I guess we had a nice cold front in November where it got down early November into the 30s. And I should have jumped on it right there and then that weekend that it was pretty cold to transfer them indoors. But I did and I got sidetracked. I had some other things going on. So I missed that window. They stayed outside. They still do their thing. But I’m waiting for the next cold front or the next significant cold weather where I can basically just go outside at night. I’ll transfer them into the boxes and then they won’t feel, excuse me, no temperature change or no significant change.

Wendy:
[25:00] It won’t be a massive drop. I think we’re supposed to hit 40s at night this week. So, you know, I’m further north.

Raul:
[25:09] Correct. So I wait for something like that. And then I at minimum two months, like I get it. I get antsy sometimes and I’m like, oh, I want them to start breeding. I want them. I want to have eggs in April so I can hatch them in June. And now I just know I give them the two to three months. Three is what I really push for. And if they lay eggs, they lay eggs. And then I’ll go from there. But I used to kind of have this thing where I wanted them. I wanted to have them all within the summer and have, you know, and be able to hopefully catch them all and have animals for fall. But it’s never happened like that. They’ll lay a clutch in May, late May or June. And then you have to wait 60 days. And then the second clutch comes in about August, early September. And 60 days so it just it varies but two months minimum three months is my my number and the weather here is weird like you said one year one month, We’ll be nasty weather. And in the next month, it’s beautiful weather. And then all of a sudden, come early April, there’s another front that comes through for last, you know. And just to avoid any craziness with the turtles and the weather, I just, you know, I make sure that the weather stays pretty stable afterwards.

Wendy:
[26:19] Yeah, that makes sense. So basically, if someone’s looking to get into them, I would expect that they’re expensive. I couldn’t even really find anywhere online that had prices listed because they’re not, you’re not finding these on Morph Market.

Raul:
[26:37] Yeah, it’s not unattainable. I’ve been offered some crazy money and, you know, sometimes I think back and I’m like, I should have taken it. You know, when I got these animals originally, I was, you know, this 10 plus years ago, in my head, I was going to become a millionaire. I was going to make so much money breeding them and I was going to bank and do all this stuff with it. Got through the ups and downs, the headaches, the hardships, lost animals here and there. I’ve gotten older. And now as I’m older, it’s more of a, you know, if I produce them, if I’m able to get something out of it, make my money back or get something else I want out of it, then that’s my win, right? That’s my W, let’s call it. And I want to get them out there, right? There’s a few people, a few parks and conservation places that can’t get them or obviously nobody gives them one because whatever, there’s a number value to them that they’d rather get versus giving them away. But I like to get them out there. Price, I’ve seen them, you know, you read old posts go from, you know, in 2010, there was one at Daytona, and I think they wanted $1,200, $1,500 in 2010. I’ve spoken to another gentleman that…

Wendy:
[27:51] So go up from that, right?

Raul:
[27:53] Yeah, yeah. So someone was selling them supposedly at $2,500 each for a few years. The only animals I’ve ever sold have been pretty up there. You know people when i tell them the number they just like nah you know it’s just they don’t believe it or it’s just not what they feel is reasonable and i and i get that and trust me it’s not easy to sell animal or it’s not that i want to sell them there’s just you know there’s a situation or something came up or you can’t keep all of them yeah like yeah yeah so and like i told you they’re not easy to come by because they’re not temperature sex right so i can’t hatch a bunch of females and sit on them and be like, oh, they’re all females. These are DNA. They’re sex by the DNA. So you have to sit on them if you’re going to raise them up and see what you got and then figure out what you need and what you don’t need. And hence, the few people that do get one animal, it’s always, you know, most often a male, right? Because everybody’s trying to sit.

Wendy:
[28:48] So it’s a long game because you’re waiting until they’re, yeah.

The Market and Ownership Insights

Raul:
[28:52] Yeah, it is. But you can get them. It’s just, you know, knowing the right people, pulling the trigger when it’s offered to you because i mean for example you go to a show like daytona almost everything that you want that’s legally available is there yeah it’s just the price tag is that deters you know people from from getting it i mean if you really want it you’ll do it or you pay it if you don’t want it or it’s too much it’s you know it’s just one of those scenarios.

Wendy:
[29:20] So would you not recommend them for someone who’s not looking to breed them just once, like a pet animal? It feels like there’s so few of them that you would really want someone who’s interested in the species and breeding them.

Raul:
[29:36] And yeah, so thus far, the few people that do have them, it’s been a kind of circle selling to each other or offering animals within the circle of the people that work with them. Of course, sometimes the opportunity comes and you just don’t have the funds to to make that, you know, purchase.

Wendy:
[29:56] Yeah.

Raul:
[29:56] So then the first the next people that come up are the people that wanted one or want to get in. And it’s not like a secret club. I mean, it seems like I take that back. Like, it’s not that they don’t want to. It’s just, you know, first pick or the first people I go to is people that already have these animals and we’re trying to, you know, outsource or find different bloodlines, swap out animals to have a different, you know, sex or so, whatever it is that you need. First is to take care of the people that already have them and are working with them. And then everybody else kind of comes in, you know, afterwards and then they get, unfortunately, they get second pick, right? Like, we give the first options to… To these guys and everybody else kind of goes by there but you can it’s just, if you do get it I would recommend you’re going to do something with it right you’re not going to just leave it there keep it to collect it yeah, Yeah.

Wendy:
[30:49] And someone who’s, you know, thinks they’re super cool because they’re rare or they’re personable, you were saying you can get a very similar experience with wood turtles.

Raul:
[31:00] Wood turtles, the Splangorai, Chilmaida, box turtles. I mean, there’s a whole assortment of turtles that do have personalities. This is not the only animal that, you know, comes up to you and, you know, follows you around. There’s a lot of turtles that do that. The water turtles, your snake necks, they see you and what do they do? They are going crazy.

Wendy:
[31:22] We can hear them from the other room just splashing.

Raul:
[31:27] Eager, eager.

Wendy:
[31:29] It’s getting to the point that even if a dog walks past their tank, they’re flapping. Feed me! Feed me!

Raul:
[31:37] And they act like they’re starving. Even though you feed them every day, they’re always acting like you never fed them ever. And it’s the same thing. You know, when the people, the few people that have been out here, when they see them and they come up to them, like, do you not feed them? Like, dude, they just know that we’re going to give them food. Yeah, they just be enhanced.

Wendy:
[31:56] All right. Is there anything that we missed on captive care that you think people should know?

Raul:
[32:02] I think they’re pretty straightforward. I always tell people, if you have questions, it’s always better to ask. I ask stupid questions all the time. I’m not an expert. You know, I’m always going to be a student. someone’s always going to know more than me like if you come across an issue with your animal or, someone has a bog turtle and they don’t know how to take care of something or what’s the issue or what kind of problems come up it’s always better to put it out there and see what we can do to help, Of course, always obtain legal animals. If there’s questionable backgrounds, don’t go with it. Pull back because, sure, those questionable animals. When someone tells you something questionable or gives you an answer that makes you stop and think, that’s a red flag. That’s just to me, it’s a setup. It’s going to bite you in the butt in the long run.

Wendy:
[32:50] So if you see them for cheap, then you should question that, right?

Raul:
[32:54] If someone says, yeah, or they’re like, hey, I came back from visiting my uncle in New York or Maryland or Tennessee and stuff like that. Just, man, I get it. You want it. It’s there. It’s in front of you. But I’m going to tell you right now, save yourself the headache that I’m sure will come with it if you do purchase stuff like that. And I’m assuming you just got to be patient.

Wendy:
[33:17] Yeah, you could reach out to someone that you know has them and say, hey, is this legit?

Raul:
[33:22] That too. I mean, there’s the circle. It’s a small circle. And I mean, there is I’m sure there’s a handful of people that I don’t know of that do have them. But they’re far and few in between. I mean, there’s, you know, I can count everybody probably in one hand that I know breeds them. And they’re legitimate animals, legitimate people. And then maybe there’s two

Conclusion and Resources for Enthusiasts

Raul:
[33:41] or three guys that I’ve heard or there’s a rumor or, you know, whatever. But it’s not a big circle. It’s very small.

Wendy:
[33:49] So if anyone has questions for you, where’s the best place to reach you? I know we’ve been directing people to the TTPG group discussion on Facebook.

Raul:
[34:00] Yeah, they can go there if they want to. Yeah, or they can message me directly on Facebook. I mean, I’m on there all the time posting something so they can find me there. And then Instagram as well. Whatever is easier for them. Unfortunately, I don’t have every social media. I just do Facebook and Instagram right now. But yeah, they can reach out and see what I can do to help or what I can provide them.

Wendy:
[34:23] All right. Great. Thank you so much, Raul, for joining me again to talk about bog turtles. And for our listeners, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss our next episode. Thank you.

Raul:
[34:36] Thank you again, Wendy.